Native American Congressional Hearing

Chairman Westerman (03:10):

The resources [inaudible 00:01:11].

(03:10)
Thank you. You may be seated. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recess of the committee at any time. The committee is meeting today to hear testimony for an oversight hearing entitled, Examining 50 years of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act in Indian Country Under Committee Rule 4F, any oral opening statements that hearings are limited to the Chairman and the ranking minority member. I therefore ask unanimous consent that all of their members opening statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with committee Rule 3O. Without objection, so ordered.

(03:51)
By way of introduction. I'm Congressman Bruce Westerman from Arkansas's fourth Congressional District and I serve as the chairman of the committee on House Natural Resources. I'm grateful today to be joined by several members who represent the great state of Oklahoma and other members from on and off our committee who have traveled here to talk about these very important issues. I ask unanimous consent that the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, the gentlewoman from Oklahoma, Ms. Bice and the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Elsie be allowed to sit and participate in today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered.

(04:28)
I'll now recognize myself for an opening statement. Again, thank you for joining us today for the committee's first field hearing of the 119th Congress. Special thanks to our hosts, representatives, Bice and Lucas, for being with us today and for your hospitality during the visit. I know we were in Representative Bice's district last night. We're in Representative Lucas's district this morning. At the end of the 118th Congress, I expressed my desire for our first field hearing this year to focus on engaging with tribes and to continue a meaningful discussion on how Congress can best collaborate to uphold the United States Trust responsibilities to Native American communities. We hosted a roundtable in DC last November that engaged members of congress and tribal leaders from across the country to discuss how to best expand economic opportunities, enhance healthcare delivery for tribal communities among other topics.

(05:23)
From the discussion at the roundtable, it was evident there is considerable interest in Congress and among tribal leaders for increased dialogue focused on enhancing tribal self-governance, promoting economic opportunities, and improving the quality of life for tribal communities. Since the 1970s, the United States has pursued a policy of self-determination for tribes enabling tribal governments to direct the services provided to their members. It was President Nixon who said, and I quote, "We must make it clear that Indians can become independent of federal control without being cut off from federal concerns and federal support." Simply put, tribes know best how to serve their people. As a result, Congress enacted the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act or ISDIA in 1975, this law, public law 93-638, which is commonly referred to as 638, established the statutory basis for self-determination contracts and later self-governance compacts.

(06:31)
Through the authorities provided in ISDIA, tribes can establish systems to provide essential services that promote economic development and improve healthcare delivery for their members among other things. Today's hearing features tribes that have utilized the 638 authorities to assume responsibility for delivering essential services to their members from the federal government. Ensuring consistent and culturally appropriate healthcare in Indian country is a challenge for the federal government. However, by centering their responsibility at the local level, Indian Nations have improved healthcare access and delivery for both their tribal citizens and those in the surrounding communities.

(07:12)
When it comes to economic development, government processes such as those required to process land transactions must move at the speed of business, not at the glacial speed of the federal bureaucracy. Tribes have taken innovative steps to cut federal red tape, develop locally grown solutions, enable themselves to compete in a global marketplace. We will hear several such success stories today. Unfortunately, despite the success of the 638 program, tribes continue facing challenges in expanding the scope of 638 contracts and compacts to other federal departments and agencies.

(07:48)
The United States has a nation-to-nation relationship with each federally recognized tribe and each tribal nation is unique. As such, the federal government must not adopt a one-size-fits-all approach. I hope this hearing will provide us with a better understanding of the role self-determination agreements play in enabling tribes to serve their people most effectively. I also hope we'll identify opportunities for congress and tribes to improve the 638 authorities and the relationships that exist between the federal government and tribal governments. I look forward to hearing the testimony of our witnesses and to the discussions that will follow. I now recognize the ranking minority member for any opening statement.

Rep. Leger Fernández (08:30):

Thank you so much Chair Westerman for holding these hearings. Thank you to our Oklahoma representatives and everybody who has come. It's a wonderful showing and it demonstrates I think our commitment to the bipartisan nature of tribal sovereignty and tribal self-determination. So I'm very grateful to everybody for being here today. And to our witnesses, I need to tell you Oklahoma is one of those places that anybody who has worked in Indian country knows is where you come if you want to know more about Indian Self-Determination. I myself, when I helped set up two separate tribal health clinics looked to you and you showed up and you helped us, which is what you do to tribes across the country. You are always there with your assistance.

(09:21)
And on a 50th anniversary, it is important that we both celebrate and reflect. It's celebration and reflection to see where do we need to go from here? What lessons can we learn? And you in your written testimony have pointed out a guidepost of what we can do. You have suggested that we increase and expand Indian self-determination to other agencies like the USDA, that we make sure that we cut bureaucracy and red tape, that we look at some of the burdens that tribes who might not have a lot of resources may face. And so I am very pleased to be here. The place where the Cherokee nation was one of the first tribes to negotiate a 638 contract with the IHS and has the largest run health facility. Muscogee Creek's health system serves over 40,000 patients and we know that when you exercise self-determination and build these health clinics, it not only serves your people and you know best how to serve your own community, but it benefits everybody in the surrounding areas. It's the neighbors, it's the non-Indians who are also benefiting from your work.

(10:42)
I do want to raise however a concern I have, which is 74 days into the Trump administration we are not yet, and I hope it is a yet, and we will see better stuff later on, seeing a commitment to the spirit of Indian Self-Determination. On March 14, Trump rescinded executive order 14112, which stated reforming federal funding and support for tribal nations to better embrace our trust responsibilities and promote the next era of tribal self-determination. That executive order spoke exactly about what we need to do, which is how do we improve efficiency? How do we cut red tape? How do we make sure that we look at cost sharing, which is a problem. When the president announced the rescission, he deemed it harmful. But what is harmful about promoting self-determination and self-governance? The federal government should make it easier for tribes to access and utilize funding not harder.

(11:44)
On March 6th, we also learned that the GSA planned to terminate leases for 12 IHS and 25 BIA-filled offices. In Oklahoma you are so very lucky. I am such a fan of Chairman Tom Cole and his work and commitment to tribes, so he was able to get the leases in Oklahoma rescinded. But what about tribes across the country who also need to make sure that their BIA and IHS offices that serve these programs continue to be able to exist? I also am very concerned about the Medicaid cuts because we know that Indian Self-Determination does not exist in a vacuum, that when I was helping set up those clinics and when you were setting up your own clinics, you were relying on third party fundings. Everybody's scratching their heads because it's simply true, but you're relying on those Medicaid dollars to come in so that you could increase services because sadly we underfund IHS.

(12:44)
We've had hearings on that and it breaks my heart every time we read the numbers of how every other agency for their healthcare gets paid so much more. And if you cut Medicaid funding, tribes might have to cut services, they might have to cut staff and this is a major problem. So an $880 billion cut to Medicaid doesn't just hurt other communities. It hurts this amazing goal and promise of Indian Self-Determination. So I look forward to hearing more about that. But it is a celebration. It is a reflection and I think it is a wonderful moment to be here at a place that is such a central locus of those great ideals that President Nixon put into action when he signed the Indian Self-Determination Education Act 50 years ago. And with that, I yield back, Mr. Chair.

Chairman Westerman (13:44):

Gentle lady yields back. Again, it's an honor to be here in Oklahoma and it's also an honor to be sitting by my distinguished colleague, the dean of the Oklahoma Congressional Delegation and I want to recognize Congressman Lucas for brief remarks.

Mr. Lucas (14:02):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for being here and thank you to our very distinguished witnesses for testifying today. Congresswoman Bice and I are so pleased to show off Oklahoma, our beautiful First Americans museum and all the incredible tribes that bless our state. We have a very vibrant and complex history here and I'm glad the National Resources Committee and its members have made the trip to learn ways we can continue to work together. Oklahoma is the home to 39 tribal nations and my district, I have the privilege of touching and working with all or parts of 18 of them.

(14:44)
It's so important that the federal government has a strong relationship with each and every tribe, and that's why I've long supported a number of key programs to ensure that the United States complies with its trust and treaty obligations. The topic of our hearing today, Indian Self-Determination is certainly one that deserves our intense attention, with questions like where can we expand and improve on 638 contracts and compacts? Where funding needs yet to be realized? I hope we'll discuss these issues while still celebrating the accomplishments we've made since the ISDIA was passed in 1975. And with that, Mr. Chairman, again, thank you. And I yield back.

Chairman Westerman (15:24):

Gentleman yields back. I also want to recognize my distinguished colleague, the gentlewoman from Oklahoma, Ms. Bice.

Rep. Bice (15:32):

Thank you Mr. Chairman and I will keep this brief because we have lots of discussion to get to, but I want to say first for those that are here and have not previously been to Oklahoma City, welcome to the third and fifth Congressional District. We're thrilled to have you all here for this important hearing and thank you Chairman for choosing Oklahoma to have this important discussion. I hope you all have had a chance or will have a chance to see the museum. It's an incredible new addition to this community and I.

(16:02)
Hope you get the chance to see some of the amazing things that are here. I would just reiterate what my colleague, Mr. Lucas and Chairman Westerman have said, and that is Oklahoma is actually more a home to more than three dozen federally recognized tribes. And these individuals are providing pivotal resources to our communities through compacts and partnerships across Oklahoma and across the country. I look forward to the discussion of the last 50 years of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act. I want to thank fellow Oklahomans who are here, tribal leaders and everyone else in attendance, and I look forward to a robust hearing. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Westerman (16:42):

Gentle lady yields back. We do have a very distinguished panel of witnesses today with a vast amount of knowledge and stories to share with us. I want to now introduce the witnesses starting with the Honorable Bill Anoatubby from the governor of the Chickasaw Nation in Ada, Oklahoma. The Honorable Chuck Hoskin Jr. principal chief of the Cherokee Nation in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. The Honorable Gary Batton, chief of the Choctaw Nation in Durant, Oklahoma. The Honorable Martin Harvier, president of the Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community in Scottsdale, Arizona. Mr. David Hill, principal chief of the Muskogee Creek Nation in Okmulgee, Oklahoma. You'll have to bear with me, my Arkansas pronunciations here. Mr. Jay Spaan, executive director of the Self-Governance Communication & Education Tribal Consortium in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And Mr. Mark Rogers, chief executive officer of the Osage Nation Health Systems in Pawhuska, Oklahoma. Did I get that right, Frank?

Mr. Lucas (17:46):

You did.

Chairman Westerman (17:47):

Did I miss anybody?

Mr. Lucas (17:48):

You missed the chairwoman.

Chairman Westerman (17:48):

Oh, I'm sorry. Chair Supernaw from-

Mr. Lucas (17:52):

We never ignore Quapaws.

Chairman Westerman (17:53):

The Quapaws are very prominent in my district in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, so I apologize for missing you there. I do want to remind the witnesses that under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes, but their entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone using the timing lots. When you begin, the lot will turn green. When you have one minute left, the lot will turn yellow and at the end of five minutes the lot will turn red and I'll ask you to please complete your statement. Sounds kind of like a game show. I'll also allow all witnesses on the panel to testify before we have member questions and I recognize Governor Anoatubby for five minutes.

Governor Anoatubby (18:42):

Good morning. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman and members of the committee and our Oklahoma congresspeople. Sorry to say congressmen, it's very nice to be here with you. I really appreciate the opportunity to briefly share our perspective on the importance and the impact of the Indian Self-Determination.

Chairman Westerman (19:08):

Governor, can we have you move that microphone a little bit closer?

Governor Anoatubby (19:11):

Okay.

Chairman Westerman (19:15):

We want to make sure we hear you.

Governor Anoatubby (19:17):

Okay. You folks heard me though on that last first part. So I really do appreciate your being here today and actually locating the hearing here at First Americans Museum, which is a shining star in Oklahoma and we're thankful for the opportunity to share our thoughts with you. As you said, we offered written testimony, and this will be very brief. This Act was monumental to tribes in our ability to exercise our sovereignty and be self-determined and do the things that we needed to do and need to do today for our citizens, gives us the opportunity to administer programs that we had not administered before. They were administered by the federal government, primarily Bureau of Indian Affairs and Indian Health Service, and we took that seriously and we began right away to plan and put together ideas and programs that we could utilize to serve our people.

(20:26)
When you empower people, empower tribes, in this case, to run our own programs and deliver our own services, it gave us the ability to tailor these programs in such a way as to better meet the needs of the people that we serve. Since then, we've continued to work toward more effective and comprehensive services, excuse me, allergies, and greater financial self-sufficiency. We want to realize that vision that we had of self-determination, we're thankful for the federal government and in this case, particularly President Nixon who had a view of what was happening in Indian country in the United States. He saw a need to make changes and that change was very instrumental in the way that the tribes operated then and operate today. Revenue that we … We needed revenue, obviously. Some tribes had more than others, but many tribes simply didn't have the resources that they needed to really do the things that they wanted to do on their own. So this gave the tribes a bit of a jumpstart in being able to provide services to our people. But we needed additional revenue and economic development certainly was key to that, and there's more in the testimony about the economic development effort. But we coupled that ability to run these programs and create revenue, we combined that so that we could then create additional programs that were not even operated by the federal government. And so this was the direction that we took and we wanted to create the kind of revenue that's necessary to sustain not only what we're doing then, but also in the future.

(22:35)
Our entry into business really was small with the purchase of the Artesian Motor Hotel in Sulphur. It was done in 1972. It was before the Self-Determination Act. Not every business succeeded that we began to operate, but we learned along the way and this has helped us to be successful. I know that some folks here did stay at OKANA. OKANA is in fact a Chickasaw venture. It was done in conjunction with First Americans Museum and it's an example of what can be done and what happened as a result of the Indian Self-Determination Act and allowing us to proceed as we felt necessary and using our own ingenuity and our own abilities to do what it is we wanted to do.

(23:29)
Our tribal businesses have grown. They've actually become an economic engine that greatly stimulates the economies of our local areas, but also for the entire state. In addition to funding vital programs, the revenues that are produced, they provide services and they support our goal of self-determination. And we've grown to operate a diverse portfolio of businesses and we now count 100 businesses or so that we are in fact operating. Through self-determination, we've been able to determine the markets and the industries we need to be into. We're really thankful for the Indian Self-Determination Act. All it has done for the Chickasaw Nation and its people and really for Indian country. And we applaud the US for actually creating this opportunity for us and allowing us to do what it is that we can do in the way that we want to do it. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Westerman (24:39):

Thank you, governor. I now recognize Principal Chief Chuck Hoskin Jr. For five minutes of your introduction.

Chief Hoskin (24:47):

Chairman Westerman and members of the committee and members of the Oklahoma delegation, I want to express my-

Chairman Westerman (24:53):

Mr. Hoskin, if you-

Chief Hoskin (24:54):

I'm sorry.

Chairman Westerman (24:56):

Governor, can we please turn your microphone? Thank you.

Chief Hoskin (24:58):

All right. Chairman Westerman, members of the committee and members of the Oklahoma delegation, I want to thank you all for your presence here. I want to also say OCO on behalf of the Cherokee Nation, you're not in the Cherokee Nation, but you're very close and I'm glad to be here with the distinguished panelists, including fellow tribal leaders. It's my honor to serve as chief of the Cherokee Nation. We're the largest tribe in the United States representing. I represent here over 470,000 citizens, including Mr. Chairman, citizens in every district of every member represented here, 19,000 in the great state of Arkansas. We're a large tribe.

(25:42)
We do, I think, a great deal of good and a lot of what we do, a lot of what we built on over the last 50 years has been a direct result of is ISDIA. This law is, I think, one of the singular accomplishments of this country, and it demonstrates that on a bipartisan basis, the Congress of the United States, the president of the United States can focus on self-determination, can focus on unshackling tribes to exercise tribal sovereignty and to do what we've always been capable of doing when the laws of the government of the United States are shaped in a way that allow us to do it.

(26:28)
We are in Cherokee Nation, the economic engine of northeast Oklahoma. We have a 7,000 square mile reservation in northeast Oklahoma. We just did an economic impact study that shows we have an annual impact of $3.1 billion. This, of course, has this rippling effect across the region. It creates a great deal of employment. It spurs entrepreneurship. And I'm not only talking about our citizens, although that's my primary care and concern. It is all of the individuals who live across the communities in our reservation. Much of this success is due to the reforms that are from this era that we're talking about, ISDIA allowing again, the Cherokee Nation and other tribes to chart our own future by exercising our own judgment, determining what the most efficient way to spend federal dollars is, how to shape programs.

(27:25)
Quite simply, we have demonstrated in the past five decades that tribal nations can spend a dollar better than the government of the United States. We demonstrate it time and time again. We were one of the first tribes to embrace self-governance for compacting the delivery of federal programs and services. And today we assume administration for every program, service function and activity that allows for self-determination and self-government authorities. We're able to build roads and infrastructure, support housing and education, operate world-class healthcare facilities, preserve and improve our natural resources and lift up rural communities in particular without being bogged down in federal red tape. And one of the reasons is that we're closer to the people. We're closer to the communities. We know the people in many cases that are being affected by this. And we certainly know the communities. Again, tribal citizens and non-citizens alike benefit.

(28:29)
Consider the most recent accomplishment of the Cherokee Nation under this law. That's our self-governance agreement with the Department of Transportation. We're able to exercise authority closer to these projects to make sure they get done in a manner that we think they should get done in working with local stakeholders. But local is the key. We can do it the way we think we should do it, not the way Washington DC agencies dictate that we should do it. Healthcare facilities is perhaps the greatest accomplishment of the Cherokee Nation under this law. We operate a system that is better than any system the United States has ever run. We see 2 million patient visits a year, and we are the healthcare system of choice for our citizens. We're leading the way. We have a partnership with Oklahoma State University right on our health campus to grow our own doctors, so to speak, which is the way we plan for the future.

(29:25)
In the area of natural resources, we engage in compacts that allow us to manage tribal lands, whether it's fighting wildfires or just managing the natural life that we found when we were removed and that we are charged to take care of. We do that under ISDIA. We are, I think, leading the way in the area of natural resources. We are, I think by any metric, much better off five decades after President Nixon said we should do this, and the Congress on a bipartisan basis said, we must do this. We have demonstrated that tribes spend dollars wisely. We administer programs better. The continuation and strengthening of this program is what the Congress should do. Your presence here demonstrates your commitment to doing this. And I have to say that the secretaries of the agencies that we've dealt with under the Trump administration, the secretary of HHS, secretary of the Department of Interior, have also demonstrated an embrace of this law, and that's critical. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Westerman (30:33):

Thank you, Chief Hoskin. The chair now recognizes Chief Batton for five minutes. You're recognized.

Chief Batton (30:39):

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee and our Oklahoma delegates. Again, welcome to Oklahoma. Oklahoma is a Choctaw word, which is okla is for people or clan. Homa is for red. So land of the red people. So welcome to the land of the red people. We're glad to have you here. And I just think about the Indian Self-Determination Education and Assistance Act has been highly successful for tribes. And I want to say, "Yakoke," which is thank you from our language, which means for you, Mr. Chairman, and the rest of this committee for recognize the basic foundation of self-determination is understanding that we're a government first of all, and you have done that.

(31:18)
And then secondly, understanding that everything is controlled best at the local level. And so our tribal citizens hold us accountable and responsible for everything that we deliver. That's when, to me, accountability and responsibility truly happens. And so just to give you a little bit of knowledge about the Choctaw Nation, we're located in southeast Oklahoma, Arkansas on our eastern side, Texas on our southern side, and then the Chickasaw Nation on our western side. But we encompass about 11,000 square miles, over 13,000, I mean 13 counties. We have about 230,000 tribal members located again, as Chief Hoskin said, all across the United States of America. So we're very honored to have that.

(32:03)
But one of the things I think that's been to me most successful is giving us that authority and responsibility to make things happen. So I think about, I've been with the tribe since 1987. So I've been 38 years out of this 50 years I've been able to see the transition. And so I think about like our health system, when it was ran by the federal government, we were restricted to what dollars could go into dental, what could go into family practice and so on. When we compacted that, used to, we had about a hundred thousand outpatient visits, and now we will see over 1.1 million outpatient visits. We built a hospital, seven different clinics, two recovery centers, one for our females, one for our males. The one for our females is for our women that's trying to keep our children and their families together. So it allows us to give that local control. I think about in the areas of education, used to when it was ran by the federal government, it was restricted to one quarter

Chief Batton (33:00):

Quarter degree of blood or more. Now since the tribe uses our own resources and able to compact and so on, we delivered about $61 million in education services to over 13,000 tribal members within our area. And to me to see that we have grown from, when I started in 1987, we had about 110 employees. Today we have over 13,000 employees within the Choctaw Nation. That's what the Determination to Education Assistance Act has allowed us to do. And again, as Chief Hoskin said, yes, our primary focus is our tribal members, but not all of those people have benefited. All of our employees are tax paying citizens that pay into the state, to the county, to the federal government, and we're very proud and honored to do that. We're very proud to be Americans as well, but it's also for me, it's given us the ability to be things like, I want to just highlight this with that 13,000 employees.

(33:53)
We're the number two employer in the state of Oklahoma, they're 32nd best and employer nationally. And we're very honored that because we used our traditional culture to bring to our modern day organizational culture to help us succeed and move forward. But some of the areas that we think is really important as to expand and solidify the 93,638 language because mainly we have dealt with BIA and IHS. We believe that we should be able to compact any federal, I would say not federal funds, but treaty funded because we signed the Treaty of 1832 between United States and the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. So that's the role and responsibility of the federal government to do that as our fiduciary. But we believe if we could just do HHS and forestry, for example, Ouachita National Forest is in our area. We should be able to compact. We believe we could manage it better.

(34:50)
It lacks resources even through some of our other agencies, the food distribution program, children and Family Services, all of those, if you give us the responsibility, we'll show you that we can be accountable and that we could administer it extremely well. And you think about education funds, I mentioned to representative Heard earlier that automatically the federal government will send dollars down to the state level. Well, I think we should be able to have that same relationship, not that we're a state, we are a government, but those dollars, we should be able to compact those, all of those dollars and come directly to us. But again, we just want to thank you for being here today. We thank you for the opportunity and we hope this is a good dialogue and information for you and just, thank you. Our tribal council also passed a resolution celebrating this 50 years of celebration this year because it truly is a celebration in what the tribes have been able to accomplish. [foreign language 00:35:49]. Thank you.

Chairman Westerman (35:50):

Thank you Chief Batton. And you are the neighbor on the west of my congressional district.

Chief Batton (35:55):

Yes, we are.

Chairman Westerman (35:56):

And I now recognize Chair Supernaw, who with the Quapaw Nation has a very rich history in not only in Arkansas, but in my hometown of hot Springs. You're recognized for five minutes.

Chair Supernaw (36:10):

Chairman Westerman, Chairman Heard, Ranking member Ledger Hernandez, members of the committee and members of the Oklahoma delegation. Thank you for the invitation to testify before you today. Let me begin by telling you just how honored I am to be testifying in my home state. While you're here, you'll see that things are a bit different in Indian country than they are in D.C. For me, and I assume from others, you'll hear that more government isn't the answer. We need a smarter government. We need one that works with Indian country to meet our needs, not a government that's stuck in its paternalistic past. Fifty years ago, president Nixon challenged the Democratic majorities in both the House and Senate to reduce bureaucratic interference in the affairs of our people. As a result, Congress passed the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act of 1975. That law put in place a formula that we now know works.

(37:06)
At the Quapaw Nation, we have elected to use BIA self-governance for 21 discrete functions, almost everything that we're eligible for. That's because when programs and services are authorized by Congress, they're most effectively administered by the tribal nations. Self-governance is not just about the efficiency of your government, it's about the efficiency of our government. In our experience, the act of self-governance alone is a form of economic development. Tribal members can learn the valuable technical skills that were previously reserved for residents of the District of Columbia. Before I go into specifics of programs, I want to let that sink in. Self-governance alone is a form of economic development. When the Quapaw Nation moved to self-governance, something changed for us. We moved from a tribe that was dependent upon the United States to one that was partners with the United States. As we gained proficiency, our mindset changed from what is the next service the federal government will offer to how can the tribe better serve our people?

(38:16)
Looking back, it was the skills our government and people learned from self-governance that gave us the confidence to start a rehabilitation program, a commercial gaming business, and an environmental services company. The skills we learned in the early days of self-governance, things like cash flows, audits, reporting requirements, they changed the trajectory of our nation. We took the skills developed running our government and applied them to our economic development. It was a revelation, and for that, I am truly grateful. Now let me tell you a little bit about some of the specific programs. The Quapaw Nation operates a critically important substance treatment program. As part of our Indian Health Service self-governance, tribal leadership felt very strongly that we needed to do more for our people that struggled to find comprehensive compassionate drug treatment. Simply put, there was not a culturally competent or qualified provider in our area.

(39:16)
I'm most proud to offer to our tribal membership and others in the community. We have already reduced some of the worst outcomes and are finally making progress to heal our people. Two of the most important BIA programs we run are our realty and trust management services. By controlling these functions together, the Quapaw nation now retains sovereign control of our land. As a result, we can work with landowners and leases to quickly and transparently resolve issues on trust land. The most important example of self-governance as economic development for the Quapaw Nation was the creation of the Quapaw Services Authority, QSA. We founded this authority to do work with the EPA Superfund site, which is working to clean up the toxic lead and zinc waste left on our reservation after the BIA allowed 70 years of unsupervised mining on our land. Although there is no formal EPA self-governance program, something that you all might want to work on the Energy and Committee to rectify, we work with EPA and the Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality to put an ad hoc program together.

(40:33)
After the first cleanup crew failed to protect our cultural resources, the tribe via the QSA is now working in lockstep with the EPA and the ODEQ to restore our land for future generations. Now, I would be a negligent tribal leader if I didn't also mention HR 1451, the Quapaw Tribal Settlement Act, the legislation introduced by a congressman Josh Burkine and our senators fulfills the settlement of our claim against the United States for the mining disaster I just referenced. I hope to have the opportunity to work with you on that legislation in the near future. Thank you again for the opportunity to be here today and I look forward to answering any questions you may have. [foreign language 00:41:18]

Chairman Westerman (41:19):

Thank you Madam Chair. Chair now recognizes President Harvier, you're recognized for five minutes.

President Harvier (41:27):

[foreign language 00:41:28]. Good morning, how are you? Chairman Westerman Chairman Heard, Ranking member Ledger Fernandez and members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to provide testimony on the 50th anniversary of the Indian Self-Determination and the Education Act. My name is Martin Harvier, the president of the Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community located in Phoenix, Arizona. I'd like to recognize Representative Gosar from the great state of Arizona and thank you for your representation of the tribes of your district. Thank you representative. Our community has a long history of self-governance, compacting the majority of federal programs from the Bureau of Indian Affairs and most recently from the Indian Health Services. We entered into our first BIA self-governance compact in 1995 and have expanded that agreement several times over the last 30 years. Today we operate 17 programs including tribal courts, road maintenance and law enforcement. Perhaps the most impactful has been the land title and records office, the LTRO.

(42:29)
Before taking over the functions of LTRO, it took the BIA up to six months to record a lease. After we took this function over the community, now records leases in 48 hours. The key to a successful LTRO program is to have access to the BIA trust asset and a county management system, better known as TAMS. While it has taken several years for the BIA to grant the access we need, things are improving. Today, there are a few areas of concerns with the BIA. For probate, the BIA has a massive backlog, but there are layers of bureaucracy within the Western region office that do not allow us to submit completed probate cases directly to the Office of Hearings and Appeals, even though our staff is qualified to perform all functions. BIA should let us do this work ourselves. Further, under-staffing at the local Salt River Agency means that we often must work with staff of another agency that lacked the knowledge.

(43:35)
This means right-of-ways are often not approved within the sixty-day window required by regulation, causing delay for infrastructure and economic projects. To address this, BIA must either staff up or let us approve these transactions ourselves. Finally, funding for our compact with the BIA is not sufficient. For example, in 2023, we received $15 million to run these programs but had to spend more than $37 million of tribal funds to meet the need. That means we spend more than two times the amount on these programs than the BIA provides. Over time, funding levels have not kept up with inflation, let alone population growth. More recently, we began compacting programs from the Indian Health Services in 2017. Self-governance is an integral part of our five-in-five goal to increase the life expectancy of our community by five years, every five years. We face a stark reality. Residents in our community on average die more than 30 years younger than residents of Scottsdale, only a few miles away.

(44:45)
It will be a challenge to meet our five-in-five goal if there are significant cuts to Medicaid. IHS only funds about 65% of our operational budgets, so we, like other tribes, rely on third-party revenue to supplement our programming, and the vast majority comes from Medicaid. Any cut to Medicaid would significantly reduce the budget of our health system and without an equal increase in IHS funds, we would have limited capacity to expand programs and facilities that are needed. A cut to Medicaid would make it nearly impossible to keep up with the demand for service. After only two years, our health facility is serving more than 300 new patients each month. In addition, later this year we will be opening a 61-bed residential treatment center that is part of our Journey To Recovery program, but we cannot meet the future demand if funding levels remain the same.

(45:40)
Finally, Congress must fully fund contract support costs and 105-L leasing. Last year I was proud to co-chair a contract support cost advisory group to develop a framework and process to implement the requirements of the US Supreme Court decision in the San Carlos Apache Tribe Litigation. The IHS and Tribes successfully concluded negotiations in December of 2024 following our community, was the first to go through a pilot program to test this process and we successfully concluded an agreement in January of this year. I am glad the President and Secretary Kennedy have continued that work. In closing, I want to thank the committee for holding this hearing. In the 50 years since Self-Determination Act, we have seen tremendous positive change for our communities. I am hopeful this administration and this Congress will continue its commitment to work with tribes to improve self-governance for another 50 years. Thank you again for this opportunity to testify and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you.

Chairman Westerman (46:39):

Thank you President Harvier. The chair now recognizes Chief Hill for five minutes.

Chief Hill (46:47):

Good morning. Thank you. David Hill, [foreign language 00:46:49] and Joshua, my clan. Good morning. Name's David Hill, principal Chief Muskogee Creek Nation. My tribe town is Oakfuskee and my clan is Beaver Clan and I want to thank each and every one of you, Chan, especially with this opportunity to speak in front of you. As we met before, Chairman Westerman and glad to meet you today, Ledger Fernandez and congratulations, representative Heard. It's always been an honor to come before you. I can almost share the same thing as I was looking at my notes, it appears that Governor Anoatubby, Chief Hoskin and Chief Batton kind of took some of my notes, so I don't want to repeat everything that's been said and I'm pretty sure you have our testimony, written testimony. What I would like to do is share a little bit of who Muskogee people are.

(47:45)
That's been our custom to tell you who we are to originally come from Florida to relocated, to be removed again to Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and the 1830s being removed again by General Jackson in 1830s on removal act. Nothing but the clothes on our backs acts to walk The Trail of Tears over 24,000, only 18,000 made it to Oklahoma, to where we are today, a 100 900 Creeks citizens, fourth largest in the United States and it's an honor to be here again to where we was at before. Last year, we attended the Nixon Foundation here on the same issue to where we're at with nothing on our backs to come here to Oklahoma with only 3.2 million acres now. And it was removed from Alabama and Georgia giving up over 22 million.

(48:54)
But where we're at today, as it been mentioned, IHS, law enforcement, when I first come in office six years ago, we only had 30. Today we're up to 140. We have five hospitals and I think we're the only tribes that we service Creeks citizens, non-Creeks and non-natives. That's how we help our communities as well as emergency management. We help, we assist those communities, the drones. The drones that we have. Actually we used this last week and just recently yesterday in Wagner with the assistance of the Cherokee Marshals. That's how we work with our communities and it's been a struggle. Our history, fighting for our rights and freedom and just recently we came from Horseshoe Bend, as you well know, that's the last battle of Muskogee Creek Nation with Andrew Jackson and we offered our services when that tornado came through, but due to regulation, we weren't able to.

(50:00)
We was going to send our harbor crew, our cemetery crew to help clean up the debris and all the trees that fell down, but that's who we are. With everything that's been said, as I mentioned, I'll be repeating everything that the rest of these tribal leaders have mentioned. I'd just like to read one quote from President John F. Kennedy. American Indians remains probably the least understood and most misunderstood Americans of us all. Our treatment of Indians still affects the national consensus. Before we can set out on the road to success, we have to know where we have been in the past. It seems a basic requirement to study the history of our Indians. Only through this study can we as a nation and do what must be done in our treatments of the American Indians is not to be marked down for all times as a national disgrace.

(51:02)
Recently, 2020 July 9th, the Supreme Court ruled that Muskogee Creek Nation reestablished a reservation. That affected Indian country, that affected Muskogee Creek Nation that affected the state of Oklahoma and that affected Indian country. And all I say this is we had governor-owned ever since before our first treaty 1733 with England are the first to have a treaty with the United States with President Washington In 1790, the Treaty of New York, we still have the same government as Chief Hoskin had mentioned, we conduct business, I would say almost better than the United States government. When Chief Supreme Court Justice Gorsick had mentioned, and that's my last quote at the far end of Trailer Tears was a promise I had mentioned to Member Fernandez that I carry my Bible with me. Over eight treaties with the Spain, Britain and England, over 38 treaties with the United States and other tribal leaders, and that's all we want is the promise now was given to us. [foreign language 00:52:28].

Chairman Westerman (52:28):

Thank you Chief Hill. The chair recognizes Mr. Spaan for five minutes.

Jay Spaan (52:32):

Chairman Westerman, Ranking member Ledger Fernandez and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Jay Spaan. I'm assistant the Cherokee Nation and serve as executive director for the Self-Governance Communication and Education Tribal Consortium. We're here today because 2025 marks the 50th anniversary of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act. A landmark piece of legislation that fundamentally changed the federal-tribal relationship. Before ISDEAA, the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Indian Health Service controlled most of the programs serving tribal communities. There was little room for tribal input and even less for tribal control. ISDEAA changed that. It gave tribal nations the tools to reassume control of federal programs through self-determination contracts and self-governance compacts. And what we've seen over the last five decades is that when tribal nations control the programs that serve our communities, outcomes improve. Services become more effective, delivery becomes more efficient, and economic and community development follow. In the early years, tribal nations faced resistance from federal agencies that were reluctant to give up control. It took persistent leadership from tribal leaders to drive home the need for tribal authority and accountability That led to the evolution from self-determination to self-governance, where tribal nations not only received the funding, but equally important, the authority to design and implement programs without federal micromanagement. Congress first tested us through a demonstration project in 1988, then made it permanent in 1994. Today, over 380 tribal nations have a self-governance compact and nearly all tribes have at least one self-determination contract. Under these agreements, tribes manage a wide range of programs from healthcare and public safety to natural resource management and infrastructure. The success of self-governance is undeniable. A recent study found that from the late 1980s, when self-governance was introduced to 2022, the per capita income of tribal citizens living on reservations increased by 61% and the proportion of families with children living in poverty decreased significantly.

(54:34)
The GEO has cited ISDEAA agreements as a best practice for federal agencies to distribute funds efficiently. Reducing burdens for both tribal and federal partners. ISDEAA gives tribes flexibility to redesign programs, integrate funding streams, waive unnecessary federal rules and focus more on delivery than red tape. It also encourages innovation and builds local capacity in tribal governments, skills that have ripple effects far beyond individual programs. As we celebrate the success of the law, we must also look forward. We believe it's time to expand ISDEAA's authority into new areas, especially in agriculture, more healthcare programs and law enforcement. First, we urge Congress to expand ISDEAA authority to include key programs within the US Department of Agriculture. Tribal nations are deeply involved in the agricultural economy, managing vast farmland, producing livestock, operating successful farming operations, and addressing food insecurity. Extending ISDEAA authority to USDA provides tribes the opportunity to assume greater control over and to make USDA food and nutrition programs, rural development, conservation and food safety functions more effective for their communities.

(55:45)
Based on the success of the limited food distribution program, self-determination demonstration project, we know expansion of self-governance will result in positive outcomes. Second, we recommend expanding ISDEAA authority to additional healthcare programs within the Department of Health and Human Services. Tribal health systems are filling critical gaps in rural healthcare. Given the success of self-governance at IHS, extending this authority to other HHS programs is both logical and urgently needed. Public safety is another area ready for expansion. With over 230 tribal law enforcement agencies already in operation, extending self-governance to DOJ programs would empower tribes to address high crime rates, respond more effectively to a crisis and strengthen intergovernmental partnerships. This would also provide an opportunity for tribes to better integrate law enforcement resources, reducing both administrative burden and federal fragmentation. Further, for Indian affairs to be prepared for the next 50 years of self-governance, the agency must modernize its systems and processes.

(56:45)
Right now, tribes are hindered by outdated databases, delays in fund distribution, and inefficient communication. We recommend that the committee direct Indian Affairs to upgrade their technology and prove data sharing and streamline processes to meet the demands of modern self-governance. Finally, we ask Congress to address a long-standing inconsistency regarding contract support costs. While ISDEAA agreements can be negotiated with agencies across interior only, BIA and BIE programs currently receive CSC funding, we recommend amending appropriation language to make CSC available for all ISDEAA agreements within the department. A change to one line of text and appropriations language would correct this issue. By making these changes, Congress can strengthen tribal self-governance and ensure that federal programs truly work for the communities they're intended to serve. Thank you for your time and I welcome questions.

Chairman Westerman (57:33):

Thank you Mr. Spaan, the chair recognizes Mr. Rogers for five minutes.

Mr. Rogers (57:39):

Thank you Chairman Westerman-

Chairman Westerman (57:40):

Mr. Spaan, will you please turn your microphone?

Mr. Rogers (57:44):

Thank you. Chairman Westerman, distinguished community members and attendees. [foreign language 00:57:49]. Hello, I'm Mark Earl Rogers, CEO of the Osage Nation Health System. A distinct honor today to present before you on behalf of the Honorable Chief Kaiheka Jeffrey Standing Bear of the Osage Nation, some brief remarks regarding positive impacts for our health programs upon the Osage people, their families, and the community through the life-changing impacts of self-governance and self-determination. In Oklahoma's largest county, Osage County, located in the Pawnee Service Unit, our funding via compact with the US government under the self-governance mechanism, has brought incredible economic viability, stability, and services to the people, the Osage Nation and other tribal members we service along with our grants programs. I often describe these integrated services that are programmatic tapestry or quilt of interwoven programs to service our population in ways that are vitally important to the health and well-being of the Osage nation and does indeed have life-and-death consequences for many of the people we serve.

(58:46)
Some of the services include medical, dental, optometry services, specialty care, behavioral health and substance abuse services and other vital programs like public health, immunization needs of the community, a diabetic grant providing education, limb care and control of diabetes to decrease non-compliance, lowering long-term diabetic complications such as dialysis and limb amputations. Osage Strong is our active early interventional program. We have in our clinic educating children and adults on healthy eating, dieting and exercise with weight management for overall health, serving nutritional meals and addressing food security annually for our tribal members via Title VI program and community health representatives and senior services grants within our health system provide for the transportation of elders to medical appointments, sometimes a four to five hour round trip into and out of Osage County.

(59:40)
As well as provide social services, case management and other coordinated care for a population offering suffering from geographic loneliness, food and transportation insecurity whilst residing in these remote parts of our area. Mobile Medical Unit program, we have two units in operation that service the medical, dental, behavioral and public health vaccination, immunization needs of our tribal members located in areas where reliable transportation is a barrier to accessing healthcare in a reliable, often supporting non-tribal members in the process.

(01:00:12)
Noteworthy of this program is when the Osage Nation had a tribal response to the 2024 Barnsdall tornado emergencies during multiple declared federal, state and tribal national states of emergency. Self-governance provided not only more services to the tribe in the area, but it has also generated incredible economic opportunities for both Native American and non-native citizens alike. Everyone prospers in the community when the Osage Nation prospers. Self-governance has provided this ability to deliver these programs and services to the people in a more robust, decentralized manner, allowing for the Osage Nation to leverage these vital programs and services as a result. Some of these opportunities include approximately $85 million new construction with investments in health related services with a new clinic, expansion clinic assisted living facility, primary residential substance abuse center, providing jobs and opportunities on a grand scale in the community. Our self governed tribal health system and grants create jobs via annual budget of $62 million in the region, with payroll, taxes, community infrastructure, education and housing market stability.

(01:01:21)
It also provides valuable cultural and tribal unique opportunities for the Osage people that are vitally important is a proud viable nation of native peoples central to self-governance and self-determination. Our area of vocational programs and higher education institutions also benefit with producing the future workforce necessary for our programs and deliver these vital services to the community, keeping the next generation home with the future and thus bending the curve of outward migration from decades past. Development of the Daposka and a Dabi Osage, our school. To strengthen and preserve the language and culture through education is important. The economic impacts of being a self governed tribe for a new younger generation to remain within their communities that had not been previously available. Osage Nation tribal members are also more involved in their governance, providing more employment opportunities and tribal government and with other elected positions in their tribe, now and into the future.

(01:02:17)
The ability remain culturally active as a tribal nation and to grow and stabilize and ceremonies, language and traditions all vitally important to the Osage people since time immemorial with traditions handed down from ancestors, allowing for the Osage people to be the Osage nation. It's with great honor that I share my experience with you on behalf of the great Osage nation. It's proud people and to present this testimony today for this committee as requested. Thank you again for this opportunity and thank you the United States Congress for all it has done and continues to do in advancing the recognition, economic needs and self-determination of all native peoples. [foreign language 01:02:54]. Thank you.

Chairman Westerman (01:02:55):

Thank you Mr. Rogers. And again, thank you to all the witnesses. As I listened to your testimony, I thought, how many laws has Congress passed that people come back 50 years later and celebrate the effectiveness of the law? I think ISDEAA is a great example of good policy, good bipartisan policy that's really made a difference. Chair Supernaw, I think you summed it up, you said ISDEAA changed things. We went from dependents to partners. And it appears to me we've only just begun on what we can do when we empower people and when we let decisions be made at the local level. So it's exciting that we're here today. We're going to now move to member questions, and I'm going to begin by recognizing the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas for five minutes.

Mr. Lucas (01:03:49):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And as a part of self-determination, there are many programs in different parts of the federal government. My first question, I'd like to focus on the 2018 Farm Bill, where we established a pilot program that allowed a few select tribes, it's the nature of a pilot program, including the Chickasaws and the Cherokees to enter into self-determination contracts to purchase USDA foods under the food distribution on Indian Reservation program. When USDA consolidated a number of its food distribution warehouses, leaving many tribes in a tough spot, the Chickasaws and Cherokee nations were able to continue operations and assist other tribes with that disruption. My first question is to Chief Hoskin and also Governor Anoatubby. How has this pilot program helped in the distribution of food in your communities and whoever would care to go first, please.

Governor Anoatubby (01:04:44):

Thank you very much. The program is excellent. I want to be sure to say that as we move into this answer, we've had this program for somewhere around 40 years, and in all cases, the federal government would provide the food to us, and of course we have the opportunity to order that food based on what our needs were. But the addition of the, would be a self-determination type program where we can purchase certain foods ourselves, was certainly something we welcomed and we believe, and it has proven to be a very good change. In fact, sort of a side note is I believe that we could do the same thing with the entire program under 638. We could avoid some of these issues that we had last year. But during the time that we had the shortage, we were obviously depending on the federal government to supply us as we ordered the food. And when we ran low, we would order or at least to

Governor Anoatubby (01:06:00):

… a certain inventory level, and when that food did not arrive, it did cause us some issues, as you can imagine.

(01:06:11)
Fortunately, our team, because we have several sites, we were able to move food around where it was needed and were able to meet the needs of the people who came very, very close to running out of food for distribution. But in the case of this self-determination program, that simply did not occur. We could acquire the food that we needed when we needed it and we were in charge of this acquisition.

(01:06:41)
So it's a very good program. I believe it could be extended into the entire program and allow us to operate like we would any other Indian Self-Determination program.

Chairman Westerman (01:06:55):

Any thoughts, Chief Hoskin?

Chief Hoskin (01:06:56):

Yeah, Congressman, thank you for the question. I echo what was expressed by Governor Anoatubby. It's a good program. It's an effective program. We've used it, I think, to good ends in our food distribution program. People should understand what you all understand, which is that these food distribution programs are really in our tribal lands grocery store experiences in which the dignity of the citizen is maintained, but they're able to access food that they need.

(01:07:23)
Where this has been so beneficial is it's empowered us to buy locally if we choose to make the decisions as to where our food comes from, which is something in this country I think we've got to get back to. So it meets that interest. It also meets an interest that wasn't written down anywhere, but it's the pride of both the people who access these foods, knowing that the Cherokee Nation, their government is making those decisions and our own pride in demonstrating further that we've got the capacity to make these decisions and make these purchases and do them in a way that benefits our people.

(01:08:01)
Relatedly, during the pandemic, when we saw what the rest of the country saw, which is a bottleneck in meat processing, we were determined to do something about it and so we started our own meat processing company, the first time we'd ever been in that sort of endeavor. It was a challenge. We stood it up. Part of the success, though, and part of the success of what you're talking about is we also were able to take product from that meat company, put it into those food distribution stores. And when I'm talking about the pride of an elder, knowing that the beef that she bought, the hamburger meat that she bought was not only something she wanted, but was something that her tribe generated, and she knew it, that's the sort of pride that you can't put a price on.

(01:08:49)
It also enabled us to increase the capacity in meat processing because that's an industry that takes professional capacity, and we've built that up. So if people in this country want to talk about shopping locally, building up local economies, making sure people locally can decide where their food comes from, they need to look at this program because it's a success. We've demonstrated that we can do this across USDA programs, which is an agency that's been challenging to deal with. This has enabled us to make a lot of progress. Thank you, Congressman.

Rep. Lucas (01:09:18):

As I yield back, Mr. Chairman, just another example of why we have to have a farm bill passed every five years in Congress.

Chairman Westerman (01:09:24):

I'll second that, former Ag Chairman Lucas. The Chair now recognizes the gentle lady from New Mexico, Ms. Leger Fernández for five minutes.

Rep. Leger Fernández (01:09:35):

Thank you, Chairman, and I need to thank each of the witnesses. It was such an inspiring morning to listen to both your descriptions of what you have done in your place as being closest to the people because you are the people, right? And the idea that the self-determination is the promise at the end of a trail is both a beautiful image, but it is also, I think, that we are on a path that it is not the end of the trail. It is on a path that we are all on together as partners, and not as dependents, but as partners. And the whole federal government and everybody is looking to have more efficiency, has so much to learn from what the tribes have done.

(01:10:33)
I'm also very inspired, and I would love us to follow up more, we just have so little time with regards to the manner in which taking over the realty functions is so key because that is such a bottleneck for economic development. But I wanted to thank the Chair for raising the issues with regards to the tribal nutrition programs because I actually also had a tribal nutrition improvement act that was, has been funded and there is a tribal nutrition pilot project that will apply for 10 tribes so that they can also take over. It's sort of like I see some of these programs that you were discussing, Chief Hoskin, they're kind of like the camel's nose in that tent. We need to show the USDA that yes, tribes know how to run these programs incredibly well and will do so well on it.

(01:11:27)
But I wanted to go back to the idea that the Indian health facilities can see up to 70% of their funding come from Medicaid. Because as discussed, and as some of you have mentioned, the IHS funding alone is not enough. Medicaid provides coverage for 36% of non-elderly American Indian Alaska natives and over half of American Indian Alaska native children.

(01:11:54)
President Harvier, you, I know, are in the process of completing a residential treatment facility. I want to thank all of you for the work you do in mental health and substance abuse, drug addiction. Can you tell us, president, how any potential cuts to Medicaid or third-party revenues would affect the completion of that facility?

President Harvier (01:12:20):

Representative Fernández, if Medicaid cuts were to happen, I really think the community really have to look at what programs would have to be cut or put on hold in moving forward. As I mentioned, we estimated that third-party revenue accounts for approximately 34% of our operating budget. It's going to be something that we would have to look at and see, well, what projects are we going to move forward because of the cuts. The facility itself is going to open here, hopefully, by the end of this summer, a 61-bed facility, 24 beds for female, 24 beds for male, 13 acute detox rooms, something sorely needed in our community. And I think all tribal nations are suffering because of drug addiction, alcoholism. This facility is a bigger part of what we're trying to do in what I mentioned in my opening statement of trying to expand the years of life in our community, five years and five years.

(01:13:42)
If this project and if Medicaid was cut, again, we would have to just see what programs that we can continue to move, having to use now tribal dollars to provide these services that third-party billing would or Medicaid would be able to help in.

Rep. Leger Fernández (01:14:00):

Thank you, Mr. President. And I might want to go quickly down the line and ask each of you whether, because each of you touched upon the importance of healthcare in the use of 638, and I'm running out of time, so I'll just ask, would Medicaid cuts affect your ability to provide the full range of services? Would it negatively impact? So Governor Anoatubby?

Governor Anoatubby (01:14:24):

Yes, ma'am. If the Medicare were to be reduced, then it would affect our operation because we again utilize third-party revenue as a way to help fund our services. And so any reduction in Medicare would in fact cause us to have a reduced budget.

Rep. Leger Fernández (01:14:45):

Thank you, Governor. And I think I'm going to run out of time, so maybe a yes or no Principal Chief Hoskin.

Chief Hoskin (01:14:50):

Well, I can't be restrained to a yes or no, but I will say-

Rep. Leger Fernández (01:14:54):

[inaudible 01:14:54] ask the Chair.

Chief Hoskin (01:14:55):

I will say that it would be not only damaging to the Cherokee Nation's health system, but think of the opportunity cost in the future. We're in a growth phase, we're building a world-class system of wellness. We're building it not withstanding the Congress of the United States has not adequately funded Indian healthcare, so we lean on Medicaid. If that cuts, it's not a single injury, it's a double injury. And I trust members of Congress and the majority and the President when they say there won't be cuts, but this is a trust, but verify situation as we go forward.

Rep. Leger Fernández (01:15:25):

Thank you. Chief Batton.

Chief Batton (01:15:27):

I would use the word, it'll be devastating to us because, I think, to give you a real-life example, right now, according to our budget this year, for this fiscal year, we're $30 million already behind on where our projections were. So for a health system that has a hospital, eight outlying clinics and two recovery centers for our males and females, it's almost 50% of our service delivery system, so it will be devastating to us.

Rep. Leger Fernández (01:15:54):

Chair Supernaw.

Chair Supernaw (01:15:56):

Yes, it would have a very harmful impact in two different ways. One, the nine tribes in Ottawa County came together years ago to establish the Northeastern Tribal Health System. We pooled our IHS dollars, if you will, in order to provide good quality healthcare for Native Americans in Northeastern Oklahoma. So it would obviously have a direct negative impact to NTHS.

(01:16:19)
The second impact would be our Quapaw Counseling Services that I mentioned previously, which is a drug rehabilitation program. Basically, we would have to stop providing care to those that utilize Medicare.

Chairman Westerman (01:16:34):

I hate to cut witnesses off, but we're two minutes in on this one. You have a four for four. Does any of the last four disagree with any of the first four? All right.

Rep. Leger Fernández (01:16:45):

Very good. This is where you're going to-

Chairman Westerman (01:16:47):

And the gentle lady's time has expired. The Chair now recognizes the gentle lady from Oklahoma, Ms. Bice for five minutes.

Rep. Bice (01:16:53):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And because we have limited time, I want to get right to it. Mr. Spaan, in your testimony, you actually mentioned expanding healthcare authorities. Can you elaborate a little bit on what you mean by that?

Mr. Spaan (01:17:06):

Yes. Currently, self-governance authority is only provided for IHS programs. The tribes use a number of programs that are outside of IHS within HHS. So either it's from SAMHSA or HRSA or other agencies, and these supplement… These programs provide a comprehensive, holistic approach to healthcare. And those are currently being offered through either block grants or granting mechanisms that are very limiting.

(01:17:27)
And so expanding that self-governance authority to these additional programs would provide tribes the additional flexibility needed to really look at wraparound services and take all the federal funding and redesign it in a way that suits their community the best. There's examples right now where if you get program funding from an HHS program that you have to keep that separate from your IHS money. You have to track it separately, you have to have separate staff [inaudible 01:17:49]-

Rep. Bice (01:17:49):

You mean bureaucracy?

Mr. Spaan (01:17:51):

Yes.

Rep. Bice (01:17:51):

No.

Mr. Spaan (01:17:52):

So, definitely, cut federal bureaucracy and cut the red tape.

Rep. Bice (01:17:55):

Thank you very much. You also mentioned that you would like to see an update to IHS technology to be able to process these programs quicker. Can you give me a little bit of an insight into that as well?

Mr. Spaan (01:18:09):

I was actually referring to Department of the Interior.

Rep. Bice (01:18:11):

Oh, okay.

Mr. Spaan (01:18:13):

Yeah. At Department of Interior, they have an outdated database for transfer of funds. It wasn't ever designed for self-governance or self-determination contracting and compacting. That needs to be corrected. They have challenges with getting reports out to tribes on where their funding is being used, how the funding is being transferred to them when it's transferred to them. We just really feel like there needs to be an overall modernization within Department of Interior to make sure that they stay on the edge of being able to support self-governance in the future.

Rep. Bice (01:18:40):

Thank you. I want to move to education. There's a lot of conversations around education currently and you all have, I think, the opportunity to provide some services to your tribal members that's maybe unique. Does anyone want to talk a little bit about some of the unique education partnerships or programs that you have provided to your tribal members that you think that we should know about, Chief Batton?

Chief Batton (01:19:08):

Yes. One of the programs we have is, it's called the POSSE program, the summer school program where we have put 89 different school districts within the Choctaw Nation reservation jurisdiction area. And it's been proven that if children in the third grade, if they are not at the level they need to, their chances of graduation are very limited.

(01:19:27)
So what we do is we provide that opportunity for all Indian and non-Indian students all across the 89 school districts, and we do that every summer. We employ about 200 teachers to help supplement their income so that they can provide. They do all these other types of things, and they love it because they get out of the fixed system of what they have to provide to children. But you get the children back on the path that they need to be, and it's been very successful for us.

Rep. Bice (01:19:55):

Anyone else want to [inaudible 01:19:57] Chief Hoskin.

Chief Hoskin (01:19:57):

Just briefly, Congresswoman, we recently have been part of an agreement through the Bureau of Indian Education, the Native American Agriculture Fund, using in part some Keepseagle settlement money and some Bureau of Indian education money to restore agriculture education at Sequoyah School, which is the school that we operate under a BIE contract. If we mean to lead in the agriculture space, and we do, we have to invest in this generation coming up, and that's what we've been enabled to do through that partnership.

Rep. Bice (01:20:28):

Fantastic. Anyone else? Let me pivot a bit. Chief Hill, can you discuss a little bit about the Eufaula Dorm the Muscogee Creek Nation manages and how services have assisted in education?

Chief Hill (01:20:45):

Thank you for that question. The Eufaula Dorm works with the Eufaula school. Approximately went to a seven day, have to go back to a five day because employment is hard to keep, keeping the kids there seven days a week. But it's been operating… Now, I can't remember how many years. But it would be devastating if those funds were taken away from Eufaula Dorm.

(01:21:16)
The poverty level where they come from, that's been a big issue. A lot of them rather stay at the dorm to help or to get more education and assistance other than going home. And that's a big tragedy there. Most of them live with their grandparents. But Eufaula Dorm has been a great assistance. We had several elected officials that went to Eufaula Dorm, and it's a real passion of them to keep going. But education there on the funding forward is one of the best opportunities you have. And if it is taken away, that would definitely affect our dorm there.

Rep. Bice (01:21:52):

I'm out of time, so Mr. Chairman, with that, I yield.

Chairman Westerman (01:21:56):

The gentle lady yields back, the Chair now recognizes the gentle lady from Oregon, Ms. Hoyle for five minutes.

Rep. Hoyle (01:22:03):

Thank you Mr. Chair. I represent the Central and South Coast of Oregon, which is the home of four tribes, the Coquille, the Cow Creek, the Siletz, and the CT Cayuse. Also, one third of the members of the Grand Ronde and the [inaudible 01:22:20]. So tribal nations are a really important part of my district, and as an Oregon representative, I bring the values and mission that we have that the United States has a moral and financial responsibility to acknowledge our responsibility for the injustices of the past. And the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act and the contracts under it play a critical role in that.

(01:22:48)
I'd also like to request unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from Carla Keene, the Chair of the Cow Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians on the importance of the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act and the tribal self-governance.

Chairman Westerman (01:23:07):

Without objection. So ordered.

Rep. Hoyle (01:23:11):

So, first, I'm going to take a point of personal privilege. My family came over from Ireland during the famine, and the Choctaw Nation, after the Trail of Tears, sent money to starving people in Ireland that my family personally benefited from. And we tell that story and I heard that story growing up, and we tell our children of your generosity. And I just want to say thank you, really matters.

(01:23:43)
So tribes in my district have shown how valuable it is that they've been able to use the contracts under ISDEAA to have local contracts on forestry and healthcare and focusing on health, right, for rural communities in a culturally competent way. You're an important part of our economy.

(01:24:09)
And Chief Batton, I'd like you to speak specifically to the efficiencies because I have seen our tribal nations, again without red tape, use federal dollars more efficiently. The effectiveness of outcomes that you have seen for your tribe in your tribal forest management, what you have done and how you have been able to use these dollars more effectively than the Forest Service on Forest Service lands.

Chief Batton (01:24:41):

Yes, I mean, again, when we're able to… It's our home, right? So whenever it's there, we're able to make sure and protect it. We want to make sure to utilize the resources we have. We always say we're the very beginning in conservation. So we want to make sure and manage all of this, the forestry, the land, we want to do it properly. And we've been able to do that locally in partnership with the forestry department.

(01:25:05)
And we believe, again, like the Ouachita National Forest, we believe any type of property, I would think any tribe here would say that we believe we can manage it. We could do it in a conservative way and then also we could do it from an economical way in regards into promotion of economic development too. Because in Southeastern Oklahoma, tourism is a big industry for us. We believe we can drive people to Southeastern Oklahoma to practice good conservations and have a good economy.

Rep. Hoyle (01:25:33):

Thank you. I'm working on a bill for tribal co-management of our Forest Service lands. We have the O&C lands where we have a patchwork set of ownership. And we see right next to Forest Service lands, BLM lands and tribal managed lands, how much better and easier it is to manage wildfire prevention, and also, our tribes manage our forests for forest health for many generations.

(01:26:03)
Is there anyone else here that would like to speak to some of the successes you've had in forest management with federal dollars? Because you get a lot less money than the Forest Service does. That was okay. All right, thank you. I yield back.

Chairman Westerman (01:26:28):

Gentle lady yields back. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Gosar for five minutes.

Rep. Gosar (01:26:34):

I thank the Chairman for hosting this hearing and our tribal members for joining us here today. We're going to learn a lot. In February, my Oversight Subcommittee actually had a hearing in regards to the mismanagement of some of the BIE schools, and I think this hearing piggybacks that very, very well.

(01:26:49)
So let's go back to school and look at the word self-determination and what is also the meaning of sovereignty. To be truly sovereign, our tribal communities need to hand up to secure economic development for their future. We need to clarify and define where the trust obligations begin and where it ends with both Indian country and with the federal government. I've always said the future of this country goes through Indian country. I still stand by that.

(01:27:16)
Now I would be amiss, I did not quantify some of these things about Medicaid. I'm also a dentist, so I know a lot about this. Okay. The Medicaid is not being cut. It's being capped. And part of the problem with this capping is what happened during COVID. We rose Medicaid enrollments by 60 some percent. We didn't ask anybody about did they have alternative healthcare. We just added them. It rose over 60%. Okay. And all we're asking is that if we were to cap it and to [inaudible 01:27:55] it by medical inflation, which is twice the inflation rate, we would save about $1.2 trillion. That's it.

(01:28:03)
But if you were to add into that, if people got it, went to a dentist for a job, or you're asking them to reapply to find out if they did have alternative methods for healthcare, well you'd save hundreds of billions of dollars as well. So one of those things I've always said is that, as I said, this country, it goes through Indian country. I also believe that for healthcare.

(01:28:28)
Now Chief Rogers, how could this self-determination act really help us in the new administration's wellness and preventative aspects?

Mr. Rogers (01:28:45):

I think being aware and looking at your resources and allocating them appropriately, communicating the challenges that arise as a result of any changes. The self-determination and compacting for tribes in stabilizing programs, which enables a tribe to plan multi-year out, be able to invest, sometimes paying back student loans, not just to HRSA, but sometimes to the tribe. So there's kind of a first, second, third order of magnitude when you're addressing that.

Rep. Gosar (01:29:26):

So let me ask you another question. Will increased mineral and mining opportunities promote greater tribal sovereignty in your tribe? You brought up the LASSO Act, and I'm the guy who introduced the LASSO Act.

Mr. Rogers (01:29:41):

I apologize, I have kind of an echo. I didn't hear that sir. If you could repeat.

Rep. Gosar (01:29:47):

Okay. Would increased mineral and energy mining and enhancements opportunities promote greater tribal sovereignty?

Mr. Rogers (01:29:57):

In regards to those areas, we have our minerals council and we have an organization that works and addresses the Osage Nation's requirements and sovereignty expressed in those areas. I'm not going to be able to speak to those today as I was here for the self-governance and the health perspective.

Rep. Gosar (01:30:22):

I appreciate that. President Harvier, I would be amiss if I didn't talk to you. As you know, in the desert, water is life. Okay. How could self-determination actually help build, and through Indian country, help regionalize water use [inaudible 01:30:39]? Like for example, in Northern Arizona, we've got a number of Indian settlements that could really help a lot of other people as well. You guys are always very preventative. Could a co-op actually work or something like that? Could you give me some ideas how that could work?

President Harvier (01:30:52):

So Representative Gosar, I know you represent a lot of the tribes along the Colorado River. We live in the Phoenix metro area. We were one of the first tribes to receive our water settlement in our community. And I'll tell you, with the settlement that we received, unfortunately, the agriculture in our community, we don't utilize all of the water that we get from our water settlement currently. So I know, because of that, our settlement is used in other areas to benefit others.

(01:31:25)
So to look at the overall each individual tribe and looking at their settlements, I think it would be something to really sit down and look at and see how we can all work together to… Water is so important in Arizona. Flying in here and seeing all the rain and all the puddles of water, I thought, we sure could use some of this in Arizona.

Rep. Gosar (01:31:47):

I'd be [inaudible 01:31:48] Paul Bunyan, if I could try to [inaudible 01:31:50]. I yield back. I'll have plenty of questions for you later.

Chairman Westerman (01:31:55):

Gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Stauber, for five minutes.

Rep. Stauber (01:32:01):

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to Representative Lucas and Bice for inviting us to this great state of Oklahoma. I am so grateful to hear your testimony this morning.

(01:32:14)
I wrote some things down that you talked about. It's best at the local level. You've given us the authority and the responsibility. More government isn't the answer. Reduce bureaucratic red tape. The act of self-governance is a form of economic dependence. Those are profound statements that I think we all can agree on. We're seeing that right now at the national level, bringing some departments to the state level and the local level.

(01:32:56)
As a former city councilor and former county commissioner in Northeast Minnesota, I often grew frustrated when officials in St. Paul or the nation's capital told us what to do, gave us unfunded mandates. And I recognize how important this is for our sovereign tribal nations. In fact, it's something I hear from the seven Ojibwe tribes that I represent in northeastern Minnesota, Grand Portage, Bois Forte, Fond du Lac, Red Lake, White Earth, Leech Lake, and Mille Lacs. Decentralized government, government that's closest to the people that are most affected is important across the entire United States, but especially Indian country. The Indian Self-Determination and Education Act has been pivotal in this. But as we've heard from you all today, we certainly have a ways to go and plenty that we can do to strengthen this system.

(01:33:56)
Chair Quapaw, in your testimony, you mentioned the perspective shift Quapaw Nation experienced with participating in self-governance opportunities, moving from dependency to partnership mentality. Could you speak further on this perspective shift and provide a few examples?

Chair Supernaw (01:34:17):

Thank you, Representative. Yes. I'll start with one example. We have an emergency operation center in Ottawa County. The way that came about was the Quapaw Nation, through its ability to utilize federal grant dollars, we built a building. Of course, Quapaw Nation had to provide for the match dollars as well in partnership with the other eight tribes in Ottawa County, plus the City of Miami 911 Board and Ottawa County, we built that emergency operation center and opened it about a year ago as the first consolidated 911 call center for the entire county. So regardless of whether you're inside the Quapaw Nation reservation, Modoc, Eastern Shawnee, all those calls go to the emergency operation center that sits on the reservation. We had a problem in terms of fraction, too many split directions, what goes to the city of Miami, what comes to Quapaw. We brought it all together and we did that through a partnership to provide a whole of community solution that was desperately needed. I think that's probably it.

Rep. Stauber (01:35:33):

Yeah. So if you couldn't practice self-governance, do you think some of these issues would have been solved? And if you were just relying on the BIA and other federal entities, how long would these problems have taken to resolve?

Chair Supernaw (01:35:48):

They probably would not have been solved because-

Rep. Stauber (01:35:50):

[inaudible 01:35:51].

Chair Supernaw (01:35:51):

… we all had to be able to come together for a common goal to accomplish the outcome that we all sought. Obviously, our grant was approved, so we're glad about that. But it took all of those groups, all the tribal nations, the county as well as the city to come together for a common good.

Rep. Stauber (01:36:14):

I think that, again, to me, I am profoundly grateful to hear all the success stories. We still have a long ways to go, and it's the commitment from our government, it's commitment from our natural resources chair. We're here in Oklahoma to listen, to learn and bring your ideas back. Very impactful, very emotional, very powerful. From this representative from Northeastern Minnesota, I say, thank you. Mr. Chair, I yield back.

Chairman Westerman (01:36:53):

The gentleman yields back. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Collins for five minutes.

Rep. Collins (01:36:58):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I don't think we have to pretty much tell people we are from the south. So since everybody else has an accent, Chairman, I intend to talk a little slower. Chief Hill, I wanted to start out by telling you, I grew up and still live about five minutes from Indian Springs State Park and visited it many, many times as a child and enjoyed that area down there.

(01:37:28)
Chief Hoskin, Cherokee, North Carolina, I have gone through there ever since I was able to remember going anywhere on my way to Gatlinburg, Tennessee and up to Cherokee itself. And I say that because I harken back to… And it's not been too many decades ago, when it was basically one road with a creek and souvenir shops and a teepee out front and people trying to earn money by selling moccasins.

(01:37:58)
And you look at that today, that community is incredible. They've got a hospital there that rivals anything I've ever seen, and they've even added onto it lately. And just riding through, you see the signs. And they're not only in English, but they're also in Cherokee.

(01:38:18)
And the reason I say that is because the Eastern Band of Cherokee, Chief Hicks was in my office not too long ago and he had the superintendent of the schools there, and they were telling me about all of that. I thought like 99% of Americans out there that the federal government did all that. I did not realize. Didn't even know what a 638 was. But they sat down and were telling me just how proud they were of their education system, just how proud they were that they were able to bring culture back to the students just by doing things like teaching the native language, and how that was making people proud to be who they are and where they came from.

(01:38:58)
And

Rep. Collins (01:39:00):

They happened to be in my office right before we had a BIE oversight hearing. And the things I've seen, I'm second term, but the things I saw in my freshman term of what we've done to the Indian reservations and tribal lands out there, it's disgusting. You talk buildings that shouldn't even be occupied, that we shouldn't even have people in these things. We've got tribes out there that the cartels have taken over and sex trafficking. We got tribes that have been asking to just mine their own land. They know how to mine, but yet the federal government and their infinite wisdom put you on a piece of land, told you to, "Stay there, don't move and we'll take care of you."

(01:39:54)
Thank God we did something that you can do 6:38 contracts and I really didn't know what a compact was, but I've figured it out since your testimony, Chief Batton. So what I want to ask, since these 6:38s, what is the first small step and I'd like to address it, Chief Hoskin, if I could, what's the first small step that some of these other tribes that don't participate in this, what's one little step that they can do to get started down that path of self-governance?

Chief Hoskin (01:40:26):

Well, one of the steps that a tribe that's not participating can take is really capacity building. And in terms of context, every tribe has the potential to execute in a really excellent manner on these 6:38 contracts. But because of the legacy of bad federal Indian policy, ISDEAA is good federal Indian policy, but we've got a great deal of bad federal Indian policy. The capacity is not always there. And so, building some capacity on some specific programs I think would be advisable. And we have partners in the government of the United States that can help provide some of that exposure.

(01:41:04)
The healthcare system is one in which I think any tribe that can should take that step because it makes the most meaningful impact on the day-to-day lives of people that they are serving. And so, any aspect of healthcare that the tribe could assume responsibility for, we don't have to speculate whether it will be done better, we know it will be done better. And just briefly, I could take everyone on a field trip to Cherokee Nation for a few hours and show you a federally-run Indian hospital and clinic that pales in comparison to the ones that we run. The similarities are there's great people working in both of them, a lot of native peoples, the system are different, our system is better, we deliver, and a tribe could take a portion of a healthcare system and assume responsibility and I think make a great deal of difference, and so that would be my recommendation capacity in looking at healthcare.

Rep. Collins (01:41:59):

Thank you. I know I'm out of time, but does the federal government offer to help in any way to these tribes get to that point?

Chief Hoskin (01:42:08):

There are opportunities for help and my friend, Jay Spaan down there runs a wonderful organization that helps bring those together. And so, there's a number of ways we can do that and I think tribes should evaluate themselves of it.

Rep. Collins (01:42:19):

All right, thank you. I yield back.

Chairman Westerman (01:42:22):

Gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Michigan and I will point out the gentleman from Michigan is also the chairman of the committee on education and workforce and it's great to have him on the natural resources committee as well. Mr. Walberg, you're recognized for five minutes.

Representative Walberg (01:42:39):

Mr. Chairman, thank you for having me on this committee and it's great to be on it for the first term and learning a lot as well in the process. I must stay quickly here. This is a great experience for me to come back to this community, where 25 years ago at the behest of the University of Michigan who had been attempting to get my son's heart condition cared for, couldn't do it, but knew Dr. Jackman here at the university was preeminent in his field and my son was cured and to the point that he was able to serve in the military as well. So I have a great heart for that. The only bad thing I remember was an Oklahoma wrestler that I could not best at one experience in my life and I'll hold that against Oklahoma for a long time. That was in younger years as well.

(01:43:33)
But it's good to be here and appreciate the opportunity to hear what goes on in your efforts to lead your people who are our people together in a way that makes sense. I could ask a lot on education. I appreciated it at a hearing we had several weeks ago where we looked at it at more, but with two tribes in my district now, my new district, we're learning more about what that means, what the impact is there. We're also learning about the great impact positive that tribes including the Pokagon Band of the Potawatomi and my district have had significantly, in our communities, educational system and commerce system as well. Governor Anoatubby, let me ask you this. In your tribe's experience, why did you decide to compact services?

Governor Anoatubby (01:44:34):

Thank you, sir, for the question. Our people needed educational services that were not being provided. We had good people that were working in the Bureau of Indian Affairs, but they lack resources. And with the schools, obviously you've heard something about those schools already, the level of educational experience was pretty low. In our case, we have no and still don't, don't have any bureau of Indian affairs schools in our area, but we do have a dormitory and that dormitory is where students live in that dormitory and then they attend public school. And there's an example of that I think also in the Creek Nation. So we felt like that we could do a better job on that because they basically housed the people, sent them to school and the experience was not exactly what it needed to be. And we contracted for that and we ran that program for a while as it was, we worked to change the model one that was more therapeutic, one where the students received more than just a room to live in. And so, by doing that, we actually built cottages and we would have house parents in that cottage where they would interact with the students, they would attend public schools, and the grade points went up. They were certainly happier students than they were in the other setting. Didn't have as many runaways as they had. These students that was here or there, many of them because they have really have a lot of issues at home. And so, we try to create and have created, I might add, a more home type environment for these.

Representative Walberg (01:46:37):

In a holistic system there as well. What might be the factors that would discourage a tribe from pursuing self-governance agreements?

Governor Anoatubby (01:46:50):

I think part of it is you have to have confidence you can do it. And in our case, if someone said you can't do it, made us want to do it even more. But it's a matter of having the confidence and having systems that you believe will sustain a contract. But I really think that the step out, do what you can, and learn if there's something to learn, and seek the advice of those who really know what they're doing.

Representative Walberg (01:47:25):

Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I would've many more questions asked but my time is expiring so I yield back.

Chairman Westerman (01:47:31):

The gentleman yields back and the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Utah, Ms. Maloy, for five minutes.

Representative Maloy (01:47:39):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll slide this closer. Thank you all for being here. This has been really enlightening for me as well. I wrote down a lot of the same quotes that Congressman Stauber did and then he used all of them. So that'll save me some of my five minutes. Thanks, Pete. But what I heard from all of you is the idea that government closer to the people and the resources responds better to the needs of the people and the resources. And as someone from a public land state, that rings really true to me. We have some experience with the federal government managing the majority of the land in our state and bureaucracy getting in the way of good ideas and responding to the needs of the people.

(01:48:20)
And I'm really intrigued by what Chief Hoskin said, his story about the sense of pride that Cherokee elders got from being able to go by Cherokee beef. They know where it comes from. They're in a setting that's designed to preserve their dignity by their own tribe. And you have had to answer a lot of questions, so I'm not starting with you, but I love the idea of tribes creating jobs and a competent workforce while preserving the dignity of their own people. And while you've got this many members of Congress here and we're on C-SPAN and you have an audience, I just want to give the rest of you a chance to share any similar experiences you've had with being able to respond to your people in a unique way that preserves the dignity and the culture of your people that the federal government wouldn't have been able to do.

Chief Batton (01:49:16):

Well, again, it's almost the same example. We started to meet processing facility in Smithville, Oklahoma, a population of like 200 people and it employed 30 plus employees there. And then, also we did the same thing by acquiring that product and putting it into the food distribution program. But also, the thing that I love about it is, and it's helped our tribal members, but also it helps the non-tribal citizens as well because there was no other place that could process meat in that area. So it grew the whole economy as well as meeting the need of our tribal members.

(01:49:51)
And I think about healthcare as well because we're able to provide the unique culturally tailored to our tribal citizens and how we meet their needs as well as the education programs. For example, in our early childhood programs, we're able to provide our language program to them and then even in our high school, we're in all of those 89 school districts I mentioned earlier, providing our Choctaw language to them as well as to some of the universities and colleges in our area. So I think that has allowed us to tailor specifically to meet the cultural needs and the local needs of our people.

Representative Maloy (01:50:32):

Thank you. Anybody else?

Mr. Rogers (01:50:38):

The Osage Nation is proud in their investment in harvest land where they have hydroponics where they grow their food and they can it and they sell it in a store. And we also have a butcher house and we have buffalo ranch the tribe has opened and invested. So not only does it provide jobs, it too has been a source of pride for our tribal members since that program has been stood up and continues to grow. We're also able to purchase some of these items and our Title VI program and actually feed our elders and somewhat becoming self-sufficient in that regard to a degree. Thank you.

Representative Maloy (01:51:25):

Thank you. Go ahead.

Chief Hill (01:51:26):

I think Cherokee Nation, Choctaw Nation built meat process processing plant almost the same year. We did the same as well and we also, right before that, we purchased 5,600 acre ranch where we grow and raise our own cattle and we actually worked with our brother and sister tribe. We purchased I think 12,000 pounds of buffalo or bison with them and we're almost similar as Choctaw and Cherokee mentioned that we have created our language program to create more opportunities, more job working with the schools, college, had a liaison department created into protecting and preserving our language and it's grown. We're actually having a language preservation next week symposium at River Spirit, three-day event, having all our elders come and those are traditional stuff that we're losing daily since COVID. I think we, in one year of spam, probably lost 225 elderly who knew the language, knew the culture, and knew the history. So we created this position, which it's a lifetime position, our secretary of culture and humanities and that department has grown probably three times as of today.

Representative Maloy (01:52:48):

Thank you. I'm out of time. I'm going to yield back, but I'll just wrap up quickly by saying the Paiute Bands in my district have started incredibly successful businesses and I'm excited to see these changes that are happening. Thank you for being here.

Chairman Westerman (01:53:03):

Gentlelady yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Hurd, who chairs the subcommittee on Indian and insular affairs on the house natural resources committee. You're recognized for five minutes.

Representative Hurd (01:53:16):

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Chair Supernaw said something that really caught my ear. She said, "Self-governance is a form of economic development." And that is a simple but profound insight and I think it underpins the Indian Self-Determination Education Assistance Act, ISDEAA. And that legislation also accounts for tribal sovereignty, it accounts for the government to government relationship between the federal government and the tribes. And Chief Batton, as you and I were discussing before, it also promotes self-determination but also responsibility and accountability on the tribal level as well. It's also an example of bipartisan problem solving.

(01:53:59)
As Chairman Westerman mentioned, I'm the chairman of the house Indian insular affairs subcommittee and natural resources. And I'm very happy that my colleague, Representative Leger Fernandez is here as well. She's the ranking member on that subcommittee and I look forward to working with her on advancing public policy that is thoughtful and sensible and good for Indian country. So I want to also thank our witnesses for being here as that subcommittee chair. I look forward to working with you and other tribal leaders across the country in advancing sound public policy. Chair Supernaw, when the Quapaw Nation compacted out various realty services, the Allottee files that you received were in disarray. What did you encounter and how did that impact your ability to carry out economic development projects?

Chair Supernaw (01:54:52):

So actually, this situation occurred prior to us compacting, but since 1964 there had been a gas pipeline trespass on some of our Allottees property. So then, when we compacted and took over our realty services, it was the professional team and our realty and trust services. It finally got it resolved and it just got resolved a year ago. It was complex. It required digging through files, negotiations with an outside, it's not a federal government, it's a private pipeline. It actually gave us the ability to set the fair market value because there are a lot more of these out there. And it gave us a benchmark through our efforts and resolving all those Allottee files to be able to set that value so that for other trespasses we've got something to go against. We've got a heuristic that we can apply that has already been negotiated and already settled and we did it without going to the courts. We're actually able to do it directly between the company and the tribe's realty office and resolve it for the benefit of the family members that this impacted.

Representative Hurd (01:56:08):

Thank you, Madam Chair. Very helpful. My next question is for Mr. Rogers and for Chief Hill, can you walk me through your compacting negotiations with IHS? Were there specific delays or hurdles that you encountered in that process that Congress should be aware of? Mr. Rogers?

Mr. Rogers (01:56:28):

Yes, sir. We were compacted prior to my arrival with the Osage Nation. They started and embarked upon that toward the end of 2014 and completed it in the fall. So it was about a two-year process. There was a lot of consultation and like you heard here testimony earlier, a lot of the tribes help each other through that process and in the spirit of Benjamin Franklin, Indian country listen to that, if we don't hang together, we'll get hung separately.

Representative Hurd (01:57:07):

Chief Hill, can you walk us through your compacting negotiations with IHS? Were there any delays or hurdles that we should be aware of?

Chief Hill (01:57:15):

Not to my knowledge, as well as him, all that was done prior to me, but it'd be something I definitely will find out for you, but not to my knowledge as of today.

Representative Hurd (01:57:27):

Okay, very good. Well, I want to thank all of you again for being here. It's an honor to be here. I think I'm the most junior member here on this dais and it's a honor to be here to be with you. Look forward to working with you and other tribal leaders in the months and years to come. Thank you very much. And with that Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

Chairman Westerman (01:57:46):

The gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes the gentleman who is not on the committee but cares about these issues so much that he drove up from Texas and waved on to the committee. Mr. Ellzey, you're recognize for five minutes.

Mr. Ellzey (01:58:01):

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. It's a pleasure to come up here to Oklahoma. Appreciate y'all coming here today. As members of Congress, our obligation to you is uphold our treaties to you and our funding promises. Along with Vice Chair Maloy on the subcommittee of interior and appropriations, and Ms. Bice is on appropriations as well. Chairman Simpson held tribal days last month. 98 tribes came out to Washington DC on their own dime and accord to come back and tell us what's going on in Indian country throughout the entire United States and Alaska. I guess it's a state, but it's a long way off.

(01:58:42)
What came out of those meetings that most troubled me was the life expectancy of Native American tribes. And right now, I think it's sitting around 64 certainly in the western states, not including California and Washington. But after COVID, it was the ethnic group most hit by COVID losing 10 years, going down from 70 to 60 as I understand it. And it's the one ethnic group that has not recovered since the end of the pandemic. And we tried to get to the reasons why and listening to all of those tribes, it's generational trauma, it's poor food, a loss of culture, poor water, lack of education, law enforcement and a lack thereof, medical care and clinics that aren't able to see enough patients are too far away, missing and murdered indigenous women and people, followed by despair and a lack of hope.

(01:59:48)
And like my friend Mr. Collins here, it's very emotional for all of us who have had to listen to it. But what I want to concentrate on the law enforcement piece. The number one job of any government, municipal, county, state, local, or federal is safety of her citizens. And that was the overwhelming problem amongst everybody that came and talked to us. So I'd love to hear from, it seems like in Oklahoma, y'all have figured out a lot of solutions through self-governance to the problems that we just talked about. I'd like to hear from any of you, whoever wants to speak up, if you've figured out the law enforcement problem, how you get enough folks to patrol and take care of your people, where the money's coming from and how we can do better. Does anybody have the answer, Mr. Hoskin?

Chief Hoskin (02:00:36):

Well, we haven't figured it out. We haven't perfected it, but we have made a great deal of progress at the Cherokee Nation and I recognize my colleagues here have been doing the same ever since the July 2020 Supreme Court case in McGirt, which was the Creek Nation case that reaffirmed the reservations. It expanded the geographic scope of what we're obliged to do, which is as you mentioned, is to protect the people. We put initially our own dollars to the tune of about $30 million into scaling up, it seemed like overnight, a criminal justice system to meet the moment. And so, that's one thing we did. We've also pressed the Congress for dollars, specifically for tribes that are impacted by McGirt, so we can seize those opportunities with federal dollars. We've also strengthened what we're already, I think, very good working relationships with the United States Department of Justice and with the Bureau of Indian Affairs with respect to law enforcement and prosecutions, we've been engaged in the missing and murdered indigenous persons initiatives.

(02:01:36)
One thing I would note that's relevant to ISDEAA is as we have amassed some third-party revenue, which only happens when tribes can take control of their own health system, we can start and we have at the Cherokee Nation identifying public health crises that at first glance, as a layperson, you wouldn't recognize, I wouldn't recognize. And that is that a lack of public safety is a public health crisis. A lack of affordable housing is public health crisis. And so, we're shifting some of those dollars to do this, build a marshal substation in a community that has a lot of crime that contributes to that generational poverty, low health outcomes, low life expectancy. And so, the ability to run a healthcare system turns out to be a great strategy, not only for healthcare, but for public housing, but for law enforcement. So continuing to strengthen this law and empower the tribes will, I think, meet the interests that you've identified. Thank you, Congressman.

Mr. Ellzey (02:02:36):

Thank you very much for that answer. Anybody else? Chief Batton?

Chief Batton (02:02:40):

One of the things that's been really important is partnerships. The ability to have self-determination, self-governance yourself is to partner with other entities. So we partner with every other law enforcement agency, city, county, and the state of Oklahoma in cooperative agreements cross-deputization because we don't have all the resources, they don't have all the resources, so we have to work together. At the end of the day, we just want to catch the people that's doing, that's breaking the law and then we'll turn them over to the proper jurisdiction. So we are just like Chief Hoskin is, whenever this happened, this ruling is we spend about $30 million annually to make sure we were forced enough. We had some of our judicial systems, some of our laws in place, but we've had to really ramp up and get those involved. But I think we've been the most successful in regards to partnering and pulling that together. And I don't know about another government within probably 90 days has set up their laws, their court system, their jurisdiction, all those things in place to get them implemented and be effective.

Mr. Ellzey (02:03:45):

Thank you. Thank you, Chair Westerman. And I'd like to thank our hosts, Mr. Lucas and Ms. Bice for hosting us today. Thank you.

Chairman Westerman (02:03:52):

The gentleman yields back. I recognize myself for the final round of questions, and again, I want to thank the witnesses for being here. Mr. Spaan, I took notes when you started listing things we could do to maybe improve ISDEAA, you said some key programs and agriculture, you referred to additional healthcare programs, DOJ programs, BA technology upgrades, appropriation language could help. And I just want to open it up to the dais. Maybe we can start with Mr. Rogers. Is there anything else that we need to know that we can take back to Washington and work on to make the self-determination work even better than it's worked the past 50 years?

Mr. Rogers (02:04:43):

Yes, sir chair. I believe more education and resources from the BIA and IHS to assist tribes, they're going through that process and not forget about them once they do. Follow up and keep that. Sometimes once you have achieved that, it's like, we'll figure it out, you're on your own. And those are actual comments that have been received in years past. So I think that would be one of the big things to help. Also when it comes to attracting professionals in the health side, HRSA and a continuation of the funding, the student loan payback program with the people who choose to work in Indian country continues to be for us a big concern. Thank you.

Chairman Westerman (02:05:30):

Mr. Spaan, anything to add to your already nice list?

Mr. Spaan (02:05:35):

I think the other thing I would add is that we would encourage Congress to really protect base funding for tribal programs. Whenever tribes are electing, if they want to take over a program under self-determination or self-governance, they are looking at that funding level and seeing can they operate the program within here or can they supplement it. So protecting that base funding is really critical. Another opportunity would be moving CSC and section 105L over to mandatory side of appropriations, that provides certainty for tribes that this is a long-term commitment to self-governance and provide that stability needed to move forward.

Chairman Westerman (02:06:06):

Thank you. Mr. Hill, and we're going to have to speed it up a little bit.

Chief Hill (02:06:12):

I just want to touch on your question. I had it written down, but public safety, that definitely affected Creek Nation first. And with the cooperation with the other four tribes, we've been able to acknowledge that and working with the state with cross-deputization, our law enforcement from 30 to 140 currently now, and these jail agreements, and once they had happened, they almost tripled in price from 30, almost $89 a day that we have to pay in our jurisdiction regardless what native they are, that's increased. So anything that can help with us with all the tribes here.

(02:06:54)
Chief Batton said before that he was looking at me as the guinea pig because it affected us first and they gave them an opportunity to think ahead on what we can do. The unique thing about it is our tribal law enforcement has to learn state, federal, and tribal. Everyone local just knows the state and federal law, so that's the unique thing about it. They can go to the city limits and the county can only go to the county limits. But tribal law enforcement can travel all 11 counties where we can help. With the new drone system, we've been helping, as I mentioned last night, had a victim or had a suspect with the system with Cherokee marshals and Creek Nation that was able to capture that person. And we had two just recently working with Tulsa, working with Okmulgee, just creating that partnership because our goal is public safety, keep bad guys off the street. Thank you.

Chairman Westerman (02:07:54):

Well, in the interest of time, I'm going to ask the rest of you if you will submit those answers in writing if you have them and Chief Batton, particularly telehealth, I know you have some experience with that and I'd love to get some more information in writing on how that's been beneficial. And to wrap up, as I was thinking about celebrating 50 years of ISDEAA, I was also reminded of some research I'd recently done. And on June 17th, we will celebrate 200 years of a quote that is the only quote that's chiseled in stone and put in the House of Representatives, is a quote by Daniel Webster. And he was celebrating the groundbreaking for the Bunker Hill Monument, which was to commemorate 50 years past the Battle of Bunker Hill. And there were 1,000 people in the audience, 190 Revolutionary War veterans, and even Marquis de Lafayette, who was the Frenchman that helped us so much in the Revolutionary War.

(02:09:09)
And those words that are inscribed in the chamber of the House of Representatives were right at the end of Webster's speech. And I take it as a challenge to all of us. I take it as a challenge to America when Webster said, "Let us develop the resources of our land, call forth its powers, build up its institutions, promote all its great ideas, and see whether or not we too in our day and generation might do something worthy to be remembered." And I'll say that in 1975, Congress and the President did something in their day and generation that's worthy to be remembered. And it's an honor to be here on the 50th year anniversary to celebrate ISDEAA and to hear the tremendous impact that it's made. I hope we can all work together to see that be even better in the future.

(02:10:04)
The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to these in writing. Under committee rule three, members of the committee must submit questions to the committee clerk by 5:00 PM on Wednesday, April 9, 2025. The hearing record will be held open for 10 business days for these responses. If there's no further business, without objection, the committee stands adjourned.