Judge Carli Kierny (00:00):
On record in State versus Davis, C377407. Anything we need to address before bringing in the jury? State?
Binu Palal (00:07):
Not from the State.
Michael Sanft (00:08):
None, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (00:09):
Defense? Okay, perfect. I think he's lining up the jury, so we'll bring them in as soon as they're ready.
(00:13)
Do the parties stipulate to the presence of the jury?
Michael Sanft (01:35):
Yes, Your Honor.
Binu Palal (01:35):
Yes Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:36):
You May be seated.
(01:40)
Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. Always good to see you. We are still in the state's case in chief. State, who is your next witness going to be?
Binu Palal (01:49):
Your Honor, it's going to be Malcolm Greenidge, I believe he's just cleared [inaudible 00:01:52].
Judge Carli Kierny (01:57):
Okay. We'll bring Mr. Greenidge in as soon as he makes it up the elevator. There we go.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
You do solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this action shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Malcolm Greenidge (02:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
You may be seated. May I please have you state and spell your first and last name for the record?
Malcolm Greenidge (02:28):
First name Malcolm, M-A- L-C-O-L-M G-R-E-E-N-I-D-G-E. That's my last name.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:36):
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Greenidge. Whenever you're ready, Mr. Palal, you may proceed.
Binu Palal (02:40):
Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Greenidge.
Malcolm Greenidge (02:41):
Good morning.
Binu Palal (02:42):
Sir, is it fair to say that you were initially resistant to attending court?
Malcolm Greenidge (02:48):
That is fair.
Binu Palal (02:48):
And in fact, we had to get a compelling order to get you to come here. Is that a yes?
Malcolm Greenidge (02:53):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:54):
And so you are here because a court in California ordered you to come here?
Malcolm Greenidge (02:58):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:59):
Okay. I want to ask you about somebody by the name of Tupac Shakur. Did you know Mr. Shakur?
Malcolm Greenidge (03:05):
I did.
Binu Palal (03:05):
How did you know him?
Malcolm Greenidge (03:09):
He was a childhood friend, a family member, big brother, mentor. The list goes on and on.
Binu Palal (03:17):
Is it also fair to say that you guys worked professionally together?
Malcolm Greenidge (03:21):
We did.
Binu Palal (03:21):
Can you tell us about that?
Malcolm Greenidge (03:25):
I had a dream to be a rapper. Mr. Shakur saw something in me and he agreed to help me make that dream come true. So I was in a group called the Outlaws.
Binu Palal (03:38):
And is it fair to say that the Outlaws produced a number of CDs with Mr. Shakur and outside of Mr. Shakur as well?
Malcolm Greenidge (03:47):
We did release an album with Mr. Shakur.
Binu Palal (03:51):
I'm going to direct your attention to the weekend of September 1996, specifically September 7th of 1996. Did you come out here to Las Vegas?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:04):
Yes, we did.
Binu Palal (04:05):
Why?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:06):
It was a Mike Tyson fight out here that we were supposed to attend, and then there was a party, performance afterwards.
Binu Palal (04:18):
What vehicle did you come here in?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:22):
We came here in the Lexus. It was Kidada Jones' car.
Binu Palal (04:27):
And who was Kidada Jones to Tupac Shakur at that time?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:30):
She was Tupac's fiance at the time.
Binu Palal (04:33):
Did Tupac drive in with you or did he drive separately?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:36):
He did, he drove with us.
Binu Palal (04:36):
In the same vehicle?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:37):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:39):
Where were you staying?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:41):
Where did we stay?
Binu Palal (04:41):
Yeah.
Malcolm Greenidge (04:42):
In Las Vegas?
Binu Palal (04:43):
Yeah.
Malcolm Greenidge (04:44):
We stayed at the Luxor.
Binu Palal (04:46):
And did any other members of your rap group, the Outlaws, come as well?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:52):
Absolutely, yes.
Binu Palal (04:54):
Who came?
Malcolm Greenidge (04:54):
Two more of my childhood friends, Jafael Fuller and Katari Cox.
Binu Palal (04:59):
Did you end up going to the fight?
Malcolm Greenidge (05:01):
No.
Binu Palal (05:02):
Why?
Malcolm Greenidge (05:05):
Well, during that day, Tupac was gambling and enjoying Vegas. He made some money when we got back to the hotel. He said, "We're going to go change. I'm going to call y'all when I'm ready and we're going to go to the fight." And we never got that phone call.
Binu Palal (05:24):
So you ended up staying at the Luxor?
Malcolm Greenidge (05:26):
No.
Binu Palal (05:27):
What did you end up doing?
Malcolm Greenidge (05:29):
We ended up trying to meet up with Mr. Shakur. We knew where the fight was at, obviously so, when we didn't get the phone call, we just left to go get with him.
Binu Palal (05:42):
Now there's a video, which I'm sure you're familiar with, of the incident between Mr. Shakur and other members of his group that were at the fight and somebody by the name of Orlando Anderson. Were you there during any of that?
Malcolm Greenidge (05:54):
No.
Binu Palal (05:58):
Did you at some point leave the MGM and go back to the Luxor?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:03):
Yes. We never really made it into the MGM. As we were approaching the MGM, Tupac and Suge was coming out.
Binu Palal (06:15):
Okay. And then did you leave with Tupac and Suge and everybody that was leaving the MGM?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:19):
Correct.
Binu Palal (06:21):
Now you had mentioned a concert or performance that was supposed to happen later that night. Was that at Club 662?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:31):
Yes.
Binu Palal (06:32):
At some point, do you leave to go to Club 662?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:36):
We do.
Binu Palal (06:39):
Okay. What vehicle did you go to go to Club 662 in?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:42):
The same car I drove to Vegas in.
Binu Palal (06:44):
And that was that Lexus?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:45):
Correct.
Binu Palal (06:48):
Was Tupac in the car with you then?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:49):
No.
Binu Palal (06:51):
What car was Tupac in?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:53):
Tupac was riding in the car with Suge Knight.
Binu Palal (06:55):
And who was Suge Knight to you? How did you know who Suge was?
Malcolm Greenidge (06:58):
He was the CEO of the label that Tupac Shakur was signed to.
Binu Palal (07:01):
And was that Death Row Records?
Malcolm Greenidge (07:03):
Correct.
Binu Palal (07:03):
Okay. Were you aware of there being more than two cars? Were there a number of cars headed towards Club 662?
Malcolm Greenidge (07:12):
There was a caravan of cars. How many, I don't know.
Binu Palal (07:16):
And position-wise, where were you relative to Mr. Shakur and Mr. Knight's car?
Malcolm Greenidge (07:22):
Right behind him.
Binu Palal (07:25):
Now, I'm going to take you to the shooting. While you are stopped at the lights on Flamingo and Koval, does something happen?
Malcolm Greenidge (07:39):
Yes.
Binu Palal (07:40):
Do you notice a vehicle pull up next to Mr. Shakur and Mr. Knight's vehicle?
Malcolm Greenidge (07:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Binu Palal (07:48):
Can you tell us what you see?
Malcolm Greenidge (07:50):
We were at a light. Mr. Shakur and Suge Knight was talking to some young ladies. We couldn't hear what they was talking about. When those young ladies pulled off, another car pulled up and started shooting at Mr. Shakur and Mr. Knight.
Binu Palal (08:08):
And do you recall what kind of car that was?
Malcolm Greenidge (08:11):
It was a light colored white Cadillac.
Binu Palal (08:14):
And do you recall, was it a two-door or four-door?
Malcolm Greenidge (08:16):
It was a four-door.
Binu Palal (08:18):
And when you saw the shooting, did somebody get out of the car and start shooting, or were they shooting from inside the vehicle?
Malcolm Greenidge (08:24):
The shots came from inside the vehicle.
Binu Palal (08:26):
And was it from the front or back seat?
Malcolm Greenidge (08:30):
It was from the back seat.
Binu Palal (08:30):
Okay. And did you see the arm or the gun or anything like that?
Malcolm Greenidge (08:38):
The arm and the gun attached to that arm.
Binu Palal (08:41):
And were you able to make an assessment of whether the person, whose arm was out, was white, Asian, Hispanic, or African-American in terms of-
Malcolm Greenidge (08:54):
From my vantage point did appear to be African-American.
Binu Palal (09:00):
What's your reaction when you see the shots?
Malcolm Greenidge (09:02):
I'm horrified.
Binu Palal (09:10):
And I'm sorry, I don't think I asked this question. Who was in the Lexus with you at that point?
Malcolm Greenidge (09:15):
Security, Frank Alexander, Jafael Fula and Katari Cox.
Binu Palal (09:20):
So two of the fellow members of the Outlaws and then a security guard named Frank Alexander?
Malcolm Greenidge (09:27):
Correct.
Binu Palal (09:28):
What do you guys do in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?
Malcolm Greenidge (09:36):
We started to get out of the car to go check on Tupac, and yeah, that's what we did.
Binu Palal (09:45):
Do all of you make it to Mr. Shakur and Mr. Knight's car?
Malcolm Greenidge (09:48):
No.
Binu Palal (09:49):
Does anybody make it to Mr. Shakur, Mr. Knight's car?
Michael Sanft (09:51):
No.
Binu Palal (09:52):
What happens?
Malcolm Greenidge (09:53):
Suge pulled off and made a U-turn.
Binu Palal (09:58):
Do you guys follow them or do you drive off someplace else?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:01):
No, we followed them.
Binu Palal (10:02):
And that's why you guys have to make a U-turn to follow them?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:05):
Correct.
Binu Palal (10:09):
Does Mr. Knight's car stop ultimately at an intersection?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:15):
It does.
Binu Palal (10:16):
What happened? Are you following him to that intersection?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:19):
We are.
Binu Palal (10:20):
What happens when you stop at that intersection?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:24):
We get out of the car to go check on Tupac.
Binu Palal (10:27):
And are you able to make it to Tupac's vehicle?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:30):
No.
Binu Palal (10:30):
Why not?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:33):
When we approached the car, Mr. Shakur said to me, "Get on the ground. They're going to shoot you." And when I turned around, there was a shotgun in my face.
Binu Palal (10:47):
And who was holding the shotgun?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:50):
Police officer.
Binu Palal (10:52):
So what do you do?
Malcolm Greenidge (10:54):
I got on the ground.
Binu Palal (10:56):
Okay. Were you able to observe any of the injuries to Mr. Shakur at that time?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:00):
I could not see the injuries to Mr. Shakur.
Binu Palal (11:02):
Were you able to see any of the injuries to Mr. Knight?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:06):
His head appeared to be bleeding.
Binu Palal (11:08):
And how was it that you were able to see Mr. Knight's injuries?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:11):
Because he was out of the car asking for help for Tupac.
Binu Palal (11:20):
So then you are at basically the wrong end of a shotgun from a police officer and on the ground. How long are you in that situation for?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:31):
It seemed like forever.
Binu Palal (11:35):
Are you able to observe the events that are going around you?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:38):
I can hear.
Binu Palal (11:40):
And does medical ultimately arrive to help Mr. Shakur and Mr. Knight?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:48):
They do.
Binu Palal (11:48):
And are they transported away from the scene?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:51):
Correct.
Binu Palal (11:52):
And then at some point, are you asked by police officers to give a statement?
Malcolm Greenidge (11:59):
I am.
Binu Palal (12:00):
And do you give a statement?
Malcolm Greenidge (12:00):
I do.
Binu Palal (12:00):
Okay. And it's fair to say, or is it fair to say that you weren't able to see the faces of the people in the Cadillac?
Malcolm Greenidge (12:10):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (12:12):
And so you couldn't identify who was there, who was in the car?
Malcolm Greenidge (12:14):
Silhouettes.
Binu Palal (12:18):
Okay. I'm going to, your Honor, may I approach?
Judge Carli Kierny (12:22):
You may.
Binu Palal (12:23):
I'm going to show you what's been previously admitted as Grand Jury Exhibit number 150. Do you recognize any of the folks in this picture?
Malcolm Greenidge (12:34):
I recognize two of them.
Binu Palal (12:36):
Okay. And there's a mouse there right next to you. Don't click on it, but if you can drag it to the people you recognize and tell us who they are.
Malcolm Greenidge (12:45):
That's me, that's Katari Cox.
Binu Palal (12:48):
And Katari Cox is one of the other artists who was part of your group?
Malcolm Greenidge (12:51):
Correct.
Binu Palal (13:04):
[inaudible 00:12:56]. One thing that's come up, you've obviously, in the 30 years of losing your friend and family member, Mr. Shakur, I'm sure you've been exposed to a lot of the rumors or innuendo associated with his passing. Is that fair to say?
Malcolm Greenidge (13:20):
I've heard it all.
Binu Palal (13:20):
Okay. One of the things is that Mr. Shakur was upset with the situation at Death Row. Have you heard that?
Malcolm Greenidge (13:29):
I have.
Binu Palal (13:30):
And was Mr. Shakur somebody that you had spent a lot of time with professionally and personally?
Malcolm Greenidge (13:35):
Correct.
Binu Palal (13:36):
Was he somebody that would tell you what his plans were and whether or not he was upset with his current situation or not?
Malcolm Greenidge (13:42):
He shared a lot.
Binu Palal (13:44):
Okay. Did he share with you what his plans were, professional plans were proceeding from the release of the Machiavelli album?
Malcolm Greenidge (13:52):
He wanted to get his label started, Machiavelli Records. He wanted to put out the Outlaws' album that we was working on. It was supposed to be distributed by Death Row Records, and he was in talks with Quincy Jones to do some business with Quincy.
Binu Palal (14:11):
So Mr. Shakur's plan was to imprint his own record company, but have it distributed by Death Row Records?
Malcolm Greenidge (14:18):
That's what he told us.
Binu Palal (14:21):
State will pass the witness.
Judge Carli Kierny (14:22):
Cross-examination, Mr. Sanft.
Michael Sanft (14:26):
Mr. Greenwich, thank you for being here today. Just with regards to the last thing the state had asked you. The work that Mr. Shakur was going to do with Quincy Jones, did that involve Death Row Records?
Malcolm Greenidge (14:44):
No.
Michael Sanft (14:45):
So it was work that he was going to do on his own, like maybe movies and a few other things with Quincy Jones.
(14:50)
Is that a yes?
Malcolm Greenidge (14:51):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (14:51):
Okay. And that's only just for the record. Now, in terms of the Death Row label, do you know whatever happened with that label, the business itself?
Malcolm Greenidge (15:05):
I think it's still going to this day.
Michael Sanft (15:08):
And in terms of the label, do you know who's currently on it?
Malcolm Greenidge (15:13):
Do I know who's currently on it?
Michael Sanft (15:13):
Yes, sir.
Malcolm Greenidge (15:15):
I do.
Michael Sanft (15:17):
At the time of when Tupac was killed, who was on the label at that particular point?
Malcolm Greenidge (15:25):
It was a lot of artists.
Michael Sanft (15:27):
Well, give us the ones that you-
Malcolm Greenidge (15:29):
Snoop Dogg, the Dog Pound, Lady of Rage, Tupac, MC Hammer.
Michael Sanft (15:37):
So for instance, with Snoop Dogg, did he at some point, is he still currently on the label as far as you know?
Malcolm Greenidge (15:42):
Is he currently on the label?
Michael Sanft (15:44):
Yes, sir.
Malcolm Greenidge (15:44):
I'm not sure what label Snoop Dogg is on.
Michael Sanft (15:47):
Okay. And I'm sure MC Hammer hasn't made any albums lately right?
Malcolm Greenidge (15:53):
That I cannot say yes or no to either. I don't pay that much attention.
Michael Sanft (15:59):
Now, so your testimony here today is that you drove into town with Tupac, Tupac's fiance, and somebody else in a Lexus. Is that a yes?
Malcolm Greenidge (16:10):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (16:11):
And that would've been, what day was that exactly? The day of the fight? The day before?
Malcolm Greenidge (16:16):
That was the day of the fight.
Michael Sanft (16:18):
So you arrived into Las Vegas with the morning of Saturday, the fight's on Saturday?
Malcolm Greenidge (16:25):
It was late afternoon.
Michael Sanft (16:28):
Okay. And the intention was that you all, including Mr. Shakur, would be staying at the Luxor?
Malcolm Greenidge (16:34):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (16:37):
Now, you're not at the fight, and at some point you're notified by somebody that you're going to get picked up by people to leave the Luxor? Is that how it worked?
Malcolm Greenidge (16:49):
No.
Michael Sanft (16:50):
Okay. Can you please explain that for me again, please?
Malcolm Greenidge (16:52):
We just left the hotel once we knew Mr. Shakur had left.
Michael Sanft (16:55):
I see. And so you left the hotel, meaning you left in the Lexus?
Malcolm Greenidge (16:59):
No.
Michael Sanft (17:00):
What happened-
Malcolm Greenidge (17:01):
We left on foot.
Michael Sanft (17:02):
You left on foot. Now, when you left on foot from the Luxor, was that after the fight?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:08):
I don't know if the fight was over or not. We don't know if the fight is over or not. We're just on our way to Mr. Shakur.
Michael Sanft (17:17):
Okay. And where did you go to meet with Mr. Shakur?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:19):
At the MGM, where the fight was.
Michael Sanft (17:21):
Okay. And did you arrive at the MGM at some point?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:25):
Yes, we did.
Michael Sanft (17:25):
Did you meet up with Mr. Shakur at the MGM?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:28):
Mr. Shakur and Mr. Knight were coming out as we were going in.
Michael Sanft (17:32):
Okay. And when you say coming out, we're talking about coming out of the property itself?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:36):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (17:38):
And when that happened, what did you do next?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:42):
We turned around and started going back the other way, back to the Luxor.
Michael Sanft (17:45):
All right. So y'all returned back to the Luxor?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:48):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (17:48):
And was there a plan at that particular point to do anything?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:52):
Get dressed.
Michael Sanft (17:55):
And what was the purpose of getting dressed?
Malcolm Greenidge (17:57):
Mr. Shakur had a performance to do that night.
Michael Sanft (18:00):
I see. And do you know where the performance was?
Malcolm Greenidge (18:02):
It was at Club 662.
Michael Sanft (18:05):
Okay. And do you know where the location of Club 662 is?
Malcolm Greenidge (18:09):
I do not.
Michael Sanft (18:10):
All right. So, everyone got dressed in their separate rooms, yes?
Malcolm Greenidge (18:14):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (18:15):
And then you came back down and you were picked up by somebody or did you just drive your own vehicle?
Malcolm Greenidge (18:21):
We were in a Lexus that was belonging to Kidada Jones, Tupac Shakur, and Suge was in Suge's car.
Michael Sanft (18:30):
All right. And you said there was a caravan of vehicles. I think the question was asked, do you know how many vehicles was in that caravan that came through the Luxor?
Malcolm Greenidge (18:37):
I do not.
Michael Sanft (18:38):
All right. But in terms of where you were in relation to Suge's vehicle, how many vehicles back were you from Suge's vehicle?
Malcolm Greenidge (18:46):
We were directly behind him.
Michael Sanft (18:47):
I see. And then when you leave the Luxor, where did you go next?
Malcolm Greenidge (18:55):
We went to go head to Club 662. That was what I was told where we were going.
Michael Sanft (19:01):
Okay. But did you eventually end up over at Suge's residence?
Malcolm Greenidge (19:05):
Yeah.
Michael Sanft (19:06):
Okay. So even though you said, okay, we're going to go to Club 662, ultimately you actually went to Suge's residence first?
Malcolm Greenidge (19:13):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (19:14):
All right. And do you know what the reason was for that detour?
Malcolm Greenidge (19:17):
I don't.
Michael Sanft (19:20):
And fair to say since you've been to his residence, it's a gated community?
Malcolm Greenidge (19:24):
I don't remember how we got in. I don't remember if it was gated or not.
Michael Sanft (19:27):
Okay. But you were there at Suge's residence and at some point the caravan leaves Suge's residence and then starts heading towards 662?
Malcolm Greenidge (19:37):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (19:37):
All right. Now, on the moment of the shooting, your testimony is, you saw what you believed to be a white, was it a white Cadillac?
Malcolm Greenidge (19:55):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (19:57):
Now, do you recall giving a statement to police officers that same morning or so that you thought it was either going to be a white or cream-colored Cadillac, you didn't know for sure?
Malcolm Greenidge (20:07):
I don't remember what my statement was 30 years ago.
Michael Sanft (20:10):
So would a review of your statement help refresh your recollection as to what you told the detective that night?
Malcolm Greenidge (20:15):
If you have that available.
Michael Sanft (20:29):
Your Honor, just one moment please.
Judge Carli Kierny (21:07):
Of course.
Michael Sanft (21:07):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge Carli Kierny (21:07):
You may.
Michael Sanft (21:11):
May I leave to wander the courtroom freely?
Judge Carli Kierny (21:13):
Sure.
Michael Sanft (21:16):
Thank you. Sir, I'm going to show you this statement here. Just read it to yourself, just in that page right there. And just tell me when you're done.
(21:21)
Done?.
(21:21)
Does that help refresh your recollection as what you told police officers that night?
Malcolm Greenidge (21:51):
Yeah, it's similar to what I just said earlier.
Michael Sanft (21:53):
Yeah. And that is, you said it was a light colored, when the question was asked, What color was it? "White. I would say light. I'm not even going to say white. I'm going to say a light colored Cadillac."
Malcolm Greenidge (22:04):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (22:05):
But once again, it's something that obviously in that sort of scenario would come off as either white or light colored, right?
Malcolm Greenidge (22:12):
It's at night.
Michael Sanft (22:13):
Yeah. In addition to that, when you observed the driving conduct of Suge in the BMW, he made a U-turn and went back onto Las Vegas Boulevard.
Malcolm Greenidge (22:26):
I don't know where he was going, that's where he ended up.
Michael Sanft (22:28):
Okay. And so at some point you all stopped because he stops?
Malcolm Greenidge (22:33):
Right.
Michael Sanft (22:33):
And you get out of your vehicle to render aid to Tupac?
Malcolm Greenidge (22:37):
No, it wasn't to render aid. It was to see how he was doing.
Michael Sanft (22:40):
Okay. And so when you approached Tupac, at that particular point, he warns you and says, and I'm sorry, I just want to make sure I wrote down, "Get on the ground. They're going to shoot you." Is that a yes?
Malcolm Greenidge (22:50):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (22:50):
And that would've been because right behind you were police officers with a shotgun?
Malcolm Greenidge (22:54):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (22:55):
Now, you're kept at the scene for some time, and we see a picture of you sitting on the ground, right?
Malcolm Greenidge (23:01):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (23:03):
Do you know how many other of the caravan vehicles were present at the time that you had stopped at the final location where Tupac was at?
Malcolm Greenidge (23:14):
I do not.
Michael Sanft (23:15):
Was it the same amount as what you had in the beginning when everyone was going to Suge's residence?
Malcolm Greenidge (23:20):
I could not tell you.
Michael Sanft (23:22):
Okay. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (23:23):
Okay.
Michael Sanft (23:23):
Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (23:23):
Any redirect, Mr. Palal?
Binu Palal (23:23):
Nothing from the State, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (23:28):
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, are there any questions for this witness? Please raise your hand if you have any. All right, seeing none. Thank you so much. Oh, we do have one. Sorry, jumped the gun on that.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
May the parties approach?
Judge Carli Kierny (24:08):
All right, Mr. Greenidge, I have a question from one of our jurors for you. Were shots ever fired from your crew toward the attackers?
Malcolm Greenidge (24:13):
Not that I know of.
Judge Carli Kierny (24:15):
Okay. Any follow up based on that state?
Binu Palal (24:17):
[inaudible 00:24:18] from the state?
Judge Carli Kierny (24:18):
Defense?
Michael Sanft (24:18):
Your Honor, just for clarification. Sir, when we say crew, I'm going to ask you just in general, any of the vehicles in the caravan, do you know if any of those vehicles shot at the vehicle that was the light colored or white?
Malcolm Greenidge (24:31):
I do not know.
Michael Sanft (24:31):
Okay. Thank you. No further questions, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (24:35):
Okay. Now you're free to go. Thank you so much for being with us, Mr. Greenidge. All right. State, who's your next witness?
Binu Palal (24:41):
Jeff Scott.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
You do solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this action shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Jeffrey Scott (25:51):
I do.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
You may be seated.
Judge Carli Kierny (25:52):
May I please have you state and spell your first and last name for the record?
Jeffrey Scott (25:59):
Jeffrey Scott. J-E-F-F-R-E-Y S-C-O-T-T.
Judge Carli Kierny (26:04):
Thank you, Mr. Scott. Mr. DiGiacomo, whenever you're ready, you may proceed.
Marc DiGiacomo (26:08):
Thank you. Sir, how are you employed?
Jeffrey Scott (26:11):
I'm a senior crime scene analyst with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.
Marc DiGiacomo (26:15):
What does that mean you do for a living?
Jeffrey Scott (26:18):
I respond to crime scenes and I document them using notes and photography, recover and impound evidence, and write reports based on the notes and the photographs.
Marc DiGiacomo (26:31):
I'm going to direct your attention to July 17th of 2023. Did you respond to an address at 2204 Maple Shade Street in Henderson, Nevada?
Jeffrey Scott (26:44):
Yes, I did.
Marc DiGiacomo (26:45):
And what was the purpose of you responding there?
Jeffrey Scott (26:48):
I was responding there to document a search warrant.
Marc DiGiacomo (26:53):
What shift were you working?
Jeffrey Scott (26:56):
Swing shift.
Marc DiGiacomo (26:57):
And so were you the only CSA that worked that scene that night?
Jeffrey Scott (27:03):
I was the only one there when I arrived, but then I was relieved later on by members of the grave shift.
Marc DiGiacomo (27:13):
And you've since looked at... Well, have you since looked at all the photographs that were taken that night?
Jeffrey Scott (27:19):
Yes, I have.
Marc DiGiacomo (27:20):
And some of them are yours and some of them are theirs, correct?
Jeffrey Scott (27:23):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (27:24):
I'm going to approach.
Judge Carli Kierny (27:34):
You can also wander the courtroom freely, Mr. DiGiacomo.
Marc DiGiacomo (27:36):
Thank you.
(27:40)
First set I'm going to show you is state's proposed 193 through 107.
(27:54)
Just flip through those and see if you can determine, are any of those photographs or at least do they fairly and accurately depict the location of the search warrant?
Judge Carli Kierny (28:09):
Mr. DiGiacomo, can you clarify for us which numbers you're introducing? You had said 193 to 107.
Marc DiGiacomo (28:14):
I'm having just look at 193 to 107.
Judge Carli Kierny (28:15):
So 107 to 193.
Marc DiGiacomo (28:19):
No, I'm sorry. 93 to 107.
Judge Carli Kierny (28:21):
Okay thank you.
Marc DiGiacomo (28:21):
Sorry I didn't realize [inaudible 00:28:23] that probably one.
Judge Carli Kierny (28:22):
That part was very confusing.
Jeffrey Scott (28:53):
Most of these are clearly not mine, the photographs that I took, but a couple of them might be, it's hard to tell.
Marc DiGiacomo (29:00):
Okay. Let me ask you this. Is that what the front of the residence looked like?
Jeffrey Scott (29:05):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (29:06):
And so it accurately reflects what the front of the residence looked like?
Jeffrey Scott (29:08):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (29:08):
Move to admit 93, Judge.
Judge Carli Kierny (29:08):
Any objection, Mr. Sanft?
Michael Sanft (29:08):
No, your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (29:08):
That'll be admitted.
Marc DiGiacomo (29:18):
And then the only really other question that I have for you as that relates to 95, do you know if that's yours or the CSA that followed after you?
Jeffrey Scott (29:31):
It's hard to tell.
Marc DiGiacomo (29:31):
Okay.
Jeffrey Scott (29:33):
I probably took a similar photograph.
Marc DiGiacomo (29:36):
Okay. And same as 94?
Jeffrey Scott (29:44):
That one I'm pretty sure is not mine.
Marc DiGiacomo (29:49):
Okay. So I'm just going to move to admit 93 and 95. Well, 93 is in. Move 95 in.
Judge Carli Kierny (29:57):
Any objection to 95?
Michael Sanft (30:00):
No, Your Honor. And just for the record, I won't object to the admission of the photographs that were taken at that particular scene by either crime scene analyst, just to move the process along.
Judge Carli Kierny (30:09):
So then the others will be admitted via stipulation. So that would be 94 and then 96 through 107?
Marc DiGiacomo (30:15):
That's correct.
Judge Carli Kierny (30:17):
Okay. Those will be admitted via stipulation.
Michael Sanft (30:19):
Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (30:20):
No problem, thank you.
Marc DiGiacomo (30:21):
Now within that garage showing you 155, there was a Dodge Charger.
Jeffrey Scott (30:28):
Challenger.
Marc DiGiacomo (30:29):
Challenger.
Jeffrey Scott (30:29):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (30:30):
And does that accurately reflect that Dodge Challenger?
Jeffrey Scott (30:33):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (30:35):
Showing you 156, does that accurately reflect an item of evidence that you collected out of that?
Jeffrey Scott (30:41):
Yes, it does.
Marc DiGiacomo (30:44):
And then 157 through 159. Take a look at those. Is that the three sheets of paper that you collected out of that vehicle?
Jeffrey Scott (30:57):
Yes, they are.
Marc DiGiacomo (30:59):
Beautiful. Okay. I'll move to admit, I know he doesn't object, but 155 through 159.
Judge Carli Kierny (31:06):
Any objection to those?
Michael Sanft (31:07):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (31:08):
Okay, those will admitted.
Marc DiGiacomo (31:09):
I'm going to go through the photographs with someone else, but you did collect a single piece of evidence before you were relieved, is that correct?
Jeffrey Scott (31:21):
Yes, I did.
Marc DiGiacomo (31:21):
I'm showing you what's been previously marked as state's proposed exhibit number 138. Take a look at that.
Jeffrey Scott (31:41):
Yes. This is the package in which I impounded those pieces of paper.
Marc DiGiacomo (31:47):
And then we've had some discussions of packaging, so I'm not going to go through all that, but that's your seal on the back?
Jeffrey Scott (31:57):
Yes, it is.
Marc DiGiacomo (31:58):
And with the exception of the slice that the defense, the clerk and I put in this, it's in substantially the same or similar condition as when you impounded it.
Jeffrey Scott (32:09):
There's an additional... And I think, yeah, it looks like somebody maybe cut the top and then resealed it.
Marc DiGiacomo (32:17):
Okay. And if I were to tell you that was on [inaudible 00:32:25] 2326, does that look accurate to you?
Jeffrey Scott (32:28):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (32:29):
If you open this, you'd expect to find those three pieces of paper in your photograph, correct?
Jeffrey Scott (32:33):
I would.
Marc DiGiacomo (32:35):
Showing you what's been marked as 138A. Are those those three pieces of paper?
Jeffrey Scott (32:43):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (32:45):
Move to admit 138 and 138A.
Michael Sanft (32:48):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (32:48):
So admitted.
Marc DiGiacomo (32:50):
Thank you. For the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm going to show just those last set of pictures of the Dodge Charger in the garage. So let's start with 155. Can you tell me what we're looking at here?
Jeffrey Scott (33:16):
That's a photograph from the right rear section of the Dodge Challenger.
Marc DiGiacomo (33:23):
Challenger. Sorry, I keep calling it a Charger. Dodge Challenger. And that's parked in the garage area of the residence on Maple Shade?
Jeffrey Scott (33:31):
Yes, it is.
Marc DiGiacomo (33:35):
156. That's the location of those three pieces of paper you collected?
Jeffrey Scott (33:44):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (33:44):
And then 157, and I'll zoom in here. Is that the front page?
Jeffrey Scott (34:00):
Yes, it is.
Marc DiGiacomo (34:02):
And, without going too much into it, this appears to be a description of an episodic series?
Jeffrey Scott (34:13):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (34:19):
158.
(34:25)
Oops.
(34:27)
Well, generally speaking, page two is a ledger that has costs and those type of things.
Jeffrey Scott (34:34):
Yes. Page two and three were, looks like a budget for the series.
Marc DiGiacomo (34:42):
And that's going to lead me just to 159.
(34:53)
Appears the total budget was slightly under a million dollars.
Jeffrey Scott (34:56):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (34:58):
Thank you, Judge. I have no more questions. I pass the witness.
Judge Carli Kierny (35:02):
All right. Cross examination by...
Marc DiGiacomo (35:00):
I have no more questions. I pass the witness.
Judge Carli Kierny (35:01):
All right. Cross examination by you, Mr. Sanft.
Michael Sanft (35:05):
Thank you. Sir, just real quick, I heard the word, what's episodic? What does that mean?
Jeffrey Scott (35:11):
Episodic?
Michael Sanft (35:12):
Yeah.
Jeffrey Scott (35:13):
To me, it means occurring occasionally or regularly.
Michael Sanft (35:19):
And that's what you saw on that first piece of paper, right?
Jeffrey Scott (35:22):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (35:23):
And your testimony here today really is that you located that piece of paper and you captured it as part of your experience and training as a crime scene analyst?
Jeffrey Scott (35:31):
The detectives executing the search warrant located it and then had me come photograph it, and then I impounded it.
Michael Sanft (35:39):
Okay. And just for the jury, so they understand what your role is typically in a search warrant, is that you're summoned to the scene to conduct an investigation or at least a search of an area based upon what the detective or primary officer tells you is the intent of the search. But you also do your own search as well, fair?
Jeffrey Scott (35:58):
It depends on the type of call and how much direction that I'll be given or I'll be doing it myself.
Michael Sanft (36:10):
And with regards to this particular situation and this specific search, you were apprised prior to the search warrant being executed that this was going to happen on this particular day?
Jeffrey Scott (36:20):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (36:21):
And so the meeting that typically takes place where you arrive on a scene where a crime had just been committed, where everyone gathers around, they have a conversation of what they're trying to look for, that meeting took place before the knock on the door and the execution of the search warrant?
Jeffrey Scott (36:36):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (36:37):
Now, in this regard, you understood that what you were going to do was walk in to look for certain things of evidentiary value, right?
Jeffrey Scott (36:45):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (36:45):
Can you tell the jury what things you were looking for of evidentiary value?
Jeffrey Scott (36:48):
I didn't have a list of items that we were looking for. I just knew that I was there to document whatever was recovered.
Michael Sanft (36:58):
And the document that we just saw here, that was something that you did not locate one of the detectives then in this case?
Jeffrey Scott (37:05):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (37:06):
Now, do you recall who the primary detective was that was responsible for that search warrant?
Jeffrey Scott (37:11):
Detective Mogg.
Michael Sanft (37:13):
Cliff Mogg?
Jeffrey Scott (37:13):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (37:15):
Okay. Were there any other detectives on scene besides Cliff Mogg?
Jeffrey Scott (37:18):
There were several, but I don't remember their names.
Michael Sanft (37:22):
Right. Now, with regards to what you do as a crime scene analyst, fair to say that you are operating under a search warrant?
Jeffrey Scott (37:30):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (37:31):
And a search warrant is a document that allows for law enforcement to go into someone's residence to look around?
Jeffrey Scott (37:38):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (37:39):
And in this particular regard though, as a crime scene analyst, you're not the one who actually applies for a search warrant, right?
Jeffrey Scott (37:45):
I do not, no.
Michael Sanft (37:46):
That would be something that would go through, in this case, the primary detective for this particular search?
Jeffrey Scott (37:50):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (37:51):
And that would've been Detective Mogg?
Jeffrey Scott (37:52):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (37:53):
Now, in regards to what you were doing in this case, you searched what parts of the house, if you can recall?
Jeffrey Scott (38:02):
I photographed the entire house. I did not search. Again, I was there to document what the detectives found in their search.
Michael Sanft (38:15):
Okay. And in your training and experience, do you have a... [inaudible 00:38:27] Now, sir, your work on this case, when you say you photographed the house, that was prior to the search of each particular room and area, right?
Jeffrey Scott (38:59):
It was after the officers had cleared the residence and then I came in and I took all my photographs and then the detectives executed the search warrant and they searched. And then I did follow up photographs based on what they found.
Michael Sanft (39:16):
You did follow up photographs?
Jeffrey Scott (39:17):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (39:18):
Now, and once again for the jury, since we weren't there, the photographs you take at the beginning is each room as you find it?
Jeffrey Scott (39:26):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (39:27):
And then the photographs that are taken after the search is each room as you find it as well?
Jeffrey Scott (39:31):
I didn't photograph the entire house, again. I photographed the items that the detectives located, wanted me to photograph. And then some items I impounded and some items I did not.
Michael Sanft (39:44):
Gotcha. And in terms of your photography, was there another crime scene analyst that arrived on scene that took additional pictures outside of the ones that you did?
Jeffrey Scott (39:53):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (39:53):
Do you know who that was?
Jeffrey Scott (39:54):
There were three members from graveyard. It was King, Stevie Felabom, and she was Finn at the time, but she's West now.
Michael Sanft (40:10):
Okay. And those are the crime scene analysts that would've taken pictures of how each room looked like after the search?
Jeffrey Scott (40:17):
I'm not sure what they did.
Michael Sanft (40:18):
Did you take any photographs of any bins of photographs found at the scene?
Jeffrey Scott (40:24):
I don't recall taking photographs of the contents of bins.
Michael Sanft (40:30):
Let me just show you here. Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge Carli Kierny (40:33):
You may.
Michael Sanft (40:33):
[inaudible 00:40:34] Your Honor, just for the record, it's already been admitted as evidence, and this is State's Exhibit Number 100. I could just publish that for the jury.
Judge Carli Kierny (41:24):
You may.
Michael Sanft (41:25):
I'm sorry. We're going to start off with 99 first. So this is State's Exhibit Number 99. Do you recall taking this particular photograph?
Jeffrey Scott (41:26):
No, I do not.
Michael Sanft (41:28):
Okay. That would've been another crime scene analyst?
Jeffrey Scott (41:30):
Probably.
Michael Sanft (41:31):
All right. And then I'm not going to show you the next one. I'm assuming it's the same thing. Outside of the photographs that we mentioned here, what else did you do in the course and scope of your duties as a crime scene analyst on this particular night?
Jeffrey Scott (41:45):
That was it. I photographed the scene. I took notes. I recovered the one item, which was the three pieces of paper. And that was it.
Michael Sanft (41:56):
All right. Thank you. I have no further questions of the witness, Your Honor.
Jeffrey Scott (41:59):
Okay. Any redirect, Mr. DiGiacomo?
Marc DiGiacomo (42:03):
Not from the State.
Judge Carli Kierny (42:03):
Okay. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, any questions for this witness? Okay.
(42:04)
All right. Mr. Scott, question from one of our jurors. What piece of evidence were you expecting to find in a location that was different from 30 years ago? Why would you expect it to be intact 30 years later?
Jeffrey Scott (42:51):
Could you repeat that?
Judge Carli Kierny (42:53):
I can. What piece of evidence were you expecting to find in a location that was different from 30 years ago? Why would you expect it to be intact 30 years later?
Jeffrey Scott (43:00):
I'm not sure I fully understand the question. I wasn't expecting to find anything. I was just there to respond and document and photograph what the detectives were interested in.
Judge Carli Kierny (43:18):
Okay.
Jeffrey Scott (43:18):
And I don't really understand the second part of the question.
Judge Carli Kierny (43:22):
Mr. DiGiacomo, any follow up?
Marc DiGiacomo (43:23):
No.
Judge Carli Kierny (43:23):
Mr. Sanft, any follow up?
Michael Sanft (43:23):
No, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (43:27):
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Scott. You are free to go.
Jeffrey Scott (43:30):
Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (43:30):
State, who's your next witness?
Marc DiGiacomo (43:30):
Steavie Felabom.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
[inaudible 00:43:35] over here.
Marc DiGiacomo (43:30):
Steavie.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
[inaudible 00:43:38]. Steavie.
Speaker 3 (44:11):
You do solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this section shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Steavie Felabom (44:17):
Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
You may be seated. May I please have you state and spell your first and last name for the record?
Steavie Felabom (44:24):
First name is Steavie, S-T-E-A-V-I-E. Last name is Felabom, F- E-L-A-B-O-M.
Marc DiGiacomo (44:33):
Ma'am, how are you employed?
Steavie Felabom (44:35):
As a senior crime scene analyst with LVMPD.
Marc DiGiacomo (44:36):
We just heard from Jeff Scott. Do you have similar qualifications and backgrounds as Mr. Scott?
Steavie Felabom (44:42):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (44:44):
Were you the relief crime scene analyst that responded to 2204 Maple Shade Street in Henderson?
Steavie Felabom (44:52):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (44:53):
And did you document with your own photographs, but also reviewed all of the photographs taken at that crime scene prior to your testimony here today?
Steavie Felabom (45:03):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (45:03):
I'm going to go through some of those photographs here and start with 93. What are we looking at?
Jessica (45:11):
[inaudible 00:45:13].
Marc DiGiacomo (45:12):
Thank you, Jessica. Not that you'll need it for this one, but that mouse up there can allow you to point. Just don't click it, okay?
Steavie Felabom (45:25):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (45:26):
What is this?
Steavie Felabom (45:27):
That's going to be the exterior of the residence.
Marc DiGiacomo (45:34):
I guess we should go. I'll do 95 first. 95, what does this appear to be?
Steavie Felabom (45:42):
The northeast master bedroom.
Marc DiGiacomo (45:49):
Okay. And then 94 is a shot from the opposite direction?
Steavie Felabom (45:55):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (45:58):
Sitting on top of that case over here, there appears to be a container for a bottle of Dom Perignon?
Steavie Felabom (46:14):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (46:18):
96, what are we looking at?
Steavie Felabom (46:26):
That's going to be the dresser on the opposite side of the same bedroom.
Marc DiGiacomo (46:31):
And at the bottom here.
Steavie Felabom (46:38):
There were several books pulled out when I arrived.
Marc DiGiacomo (46:43):
One of them is Compton Street Legend. One of them is Murder Rap. The last one is The Confused Mind of a Drug Dealer.
Steavie Felabom (46:53):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (46:53):
Is that a yes?
Steavie Felabom (46:53):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (46:58):
In addition, 097, was there a Vibe magazine?
Steavie Felabom (47:10):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (47:14):
Did you wind up collecting the Compton Street Legend and the Vibe magazine?
Steavie Felabom (47:18):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (47:20):
Now, in the garage, 098, there were two bins?
Steavie Felabom (47:28):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (47:30):
And when those bins were opened, 100. I bet you this is 99 first. 99, look like a number of personal effects that were kept in those?
Steavie Felabom (47:48):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (47:57):
And Number 100, the bottom one also had a bunch of personal effects?
Steavie Felabom (48:00):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (48:00):
Do you know what happened to those two containers at the scene?
Steavie Felabom (48:05):
The detectives recovered them.
Marc DiGiacomo (48:07):
So detectives took those two bins and left the scene with them?
Steavie Felabom (48:11):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (48:17):
This is Exhibit Number 101. What are we looking at here?
Steavie Felabom (48:25):
That was a jacket in one of the closets.
Marc DiGiacomo (48:28):
And on the left... Well, I guess we'll zoom in just a little bit. On the left side, it looks like it says, "Reg 64 Tres", and on the right side it says, "Keithy D"?
Steavie Felabom (48:45):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (48:49):
And then, if we skip to 103, the back of it says, "South Side City of Compton."
Steavie Felabom (49:01):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (49:09):
After you collect an item, do you photograph it either at the scene or back at the lab?
Steavie Felabom (49:13):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (49:14):
Showing you 104, what are we looking at?
Steavie Felabom (49:21):
That's the photograph that I took of the Compton Street Legend book once I had recovered it and taken it back to the lab.
Marc DiGiacomo (49:30):
And then 105?
Steavie Felabom (49:34):
It's the back of the same book.
Marc DiGiacomo (49:35):
106?
Steavie Felabom (49:35):
That's the copy of the Vibe magazine after I had recovered it and taken it back to the lab.
Marc DiGiacomo (49:48):
And 107?
Steavie Felabom (49:54):
It's the date and barcode on the cover.
Marc DiGiacomo (50:00):
So it looks like the November 96th edition of the Vibe magazine?
Steavie Felabom (50:01):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (50:12):
Now, ma'am, I previously opened off these, but let me show you State's Proposed Exhibit Number 148. Is that your evidence package from that night?
Steavie Felabom (50:28):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (50:29):
And among what else you recovered, would you expect to find both the book and the Vibe magazine inside there had it still been sealed?
Steavie Felabom (50:38):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (50:39):
Okay. So let me start first with the Vibe Magazine. This is State's Proposed Exhibit Number 140, which is, do you recognize the bag on the outside?
Steavie Felabom (50:52):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (50:53):
And what is that?
Steavie Felabom (50:54):
That's the identifying information that we put on interior packages to include the event number, my IP number and initials, the date that it was recovered, and the item number.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:04):
And then I'm going to show you now 140A. What is that?
Steavie Felabom (51:09):
That looks like the Vibe magazine that I recovered.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:12):
That's the actual Vibe magazine that you end up recovering out of that house?
Steavie Felabom (51:17):
If it came from that package, yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:19):
Move to admit 140A.
Judge Carli Kierny (51:19):
Any objection?
Michael Sanft (51:19):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (51:19):
So admitted.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:25):
I'm going to show you the outside of this. This is, sorry, 139. Do you recognize that?
Steavie Felabom (51:32):
Yes. Same identifying information, listing it as my Item Number Two.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:35):
And then [inaudible 00:51:39] pull that item out, what would you expect to find?
Steavie Felabom (51:42):
The Compton Street Legend book.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:47):
I'm showing it to you. 139A, does that appear to be the book?
Steavie Felabom (51:50):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:51):
And I want to show you, you took pictures of the front and the back?
Steavie Felabom (51:56):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (51:56):
The back has no picture on it, right?
Steavie Felabom (51:59):
No photograph, no.
Marc DiGiacomo (52:00):
Okay. It just has some words?
Steavie Felabom (52:01):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (52:03):
And then, if you flip through this entire book, there's no interior pictures in this book. Does that seem accurate?
Steavie Felabom (52:13):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (52:27):
Judge, I moved in 148, correct?
Judge Carli Kierny (52:27):
Any objection?
Michael Sanft (52:27):
[inaudible 00:52:28].
Marc DiGiacomo (52:27):
I think I did move in [inaudible 00:52:28].
Judge Carli Kierny (52:27):
They're already moved in. Okay. Thank you.
Marc DiGiacomo (52:28):
I think the rest of this, we've agreed we're not going to move in.
Judge Carli Kierny (52:32):
Understood.
Marc DiGiacomo (52:37):
I would pass the witness.
Judge Carli Kierny (52:40):
You may cross.
Michael Sanft (52:41):
Thank you, Your Honor.
Marc DiGiacomo (52:41):
[inaudible 00:52:49].
Michael Sanft (52:41):
I have no objection.
Marc DiGiacomo (52:41):
All of them?
Michael Sanft (52:41):
Yeah. [inaudible 00:52:59]. Ms. Felabom?
Steavie Felabom (52:41):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (53:24):
How long have you been a crime scene analyst?
Steavie Felabom (53:26):
About nine years.
Michael Sanft (53:28):
And during that time period, these kinds of searches would be standard operating procedure for you?
Steavie Felabom (53:33):
Consistent with the detectives, yes.
Michael Sanft (53:34):
Yeah. And once again, with regards to your training and experience, when you are conducting this kind of investigation, you're looking for things of evidentiary value, right?
Steavie Felabom (53:44):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (53:44):
Now, the evidentiary value part though is dependent upon what you learn at the scene from the primary officer or the detective that's conducting the search?
Steavie Felabom (53:54):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (53:55):
And so whatever you're doing is within the parameters that they're asking for?
Steavie Felabom (53:59):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (54:00):
Now, in this case, we've seen some pictures of some books and a jacket, is that correct?
Steavie Felabom (54:06):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (54:07):
And when you arrived on scene, you were on scene for the later half or the latter half of the search?
Steavie Felabom (54:12):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (54:13):
You weren't there for the beginning part of the search?
Steavie Felabom (54:15):
No, sir.
Michael Sanft (54:15):
So the photographs you took are photographs that were of the areas and in the rooms in the house after the search had been conducted?
Steavie Felabom (54:23):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (54:24):
Fair to say, of course, is that each room was in disarray?
Steavie Felabom (54:30):
The search had already been started. Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (54:33):
Yeah. And you don't know what they looked like prior to you arriving on scene, but definitely after there's things strewn around?
Steavie Felabom (54:39):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (54:40):
In your nine years of experience as a crime scene analyst, when officers are conducting a search, they typically will be as thorough as they can be to look through everything in an area?
Steavie Felabom (54:51):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (54:52):
Do they ever return those things back to how they found it before they entered into, say, the room or the house?
Steavie Felabom (55:00):
I would say it depends on the level to which they've moved everything. If the entire closet's been empty though, they don't typically put everything back.
Michael Sanft (55:08):
They do not typically put everything back?
Steavie Felabom (55:11):
Not typically, no, sir.
Michael Sanft (55:12):
Okay. So you don't have any photographs that you took after everything was over where the room was put back into place, how these police officers found it?
Steavie Felabom (55:20):
I have photos immediately before we left the residence after they'd finished searching, but not with everything placed as officers found it.
Michael Sanft (55:29):
I see. And so what you were documenting basically was, for lack of a better word, the thoroughness of each police officer's search of each room?
Steavie Felabom (55:38):
The state that we left it in when we were clearing, yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (55:40):
Okay. Now, some of the things that we were shown in this case, did you ever at any point find electronics or were asked to take pictures of electronics at the residence?
Steavie Felabom (55:53):
I believe the only electronic item I photoed was a laptop in the shed. All of the others were photoed by CSA Scott.
Michael Sanft (55:59):
Okay. But as far as you know and what you recall, there were electronics found at the house, like, say, I don't know, iPads and laptops, that kind of thing?
Steavie Felabom (56:06):
Laptops, definitely. I'm not sure what other types.
Michael Sanft (56:11):
But you're not the crime scene analyst that would've captured that and put that into evidence?
Steavie Felabom (56:16):
I didn't recover the laptop itself. No, sir.
Michael Sanft (56:18):
Okay. And as far as you know, do you know how many electronics were in the house when you were there?
Steavie Felabom (56:25):
I don't.
Michael Sanft (56:26):
Do you know whose responsibility that would've been?
Steavie Felabom (56:30):
Whoever was in charge of the search warrant, they had it listed on the return.
Michael Sanft (56:35):
Okay. And just for the jury's edification, a return is a document that's left at the house or the area to notify the owner that certain items were taken as a result of the search?
Steavie Felabom (56:46):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (56:47):
So it's almost like a receipt?
Steavie Felabom (56:48):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (56:48):
Okay. And your job really stops with regards to the actual search itself. You don't do anything further when you go back to your office with Metro or anything like that?
Steavie Felabom (57:02):
Aside from impounding whatever I recover, no, sir.
Michael Sanft (57:07):
Okay. And just for our edification, when something's impounded, the concern, of course, is to maintain what's called chain of custody, right?
Steavie Felabom (57:16):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (57:16):
Meaning that if you find something on scene, you want to make sure that that piece of evidence is exactly how it was as you found it at the scene and not molested or changed or anything like that?
Steavie Felabom (57:27):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (57:27):
So sometimes, in other investigations, you might have gloves on to protect you from transferring DNA or fingerprints onto the actual item of interest?
Steavie Felabom (57:37):
I'm usually always wearing gloves. But yes, different DNA considerations depending on that.
Michael Sanft (57:41):
So when you're telling us that you went back to make sure that certain items were impounded, items that you had taken and put it into an evidence baggy...
Steavie Felabom (57:50):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (57:51):
... you took that to the evidence vault?
Steavie Felabom (57:54):
I would've sealed it, and then we have a temporary hold that's locked. So I would've sealed it with all the identifying information and then placed it in that hold, and an evidence technician would've continued the chain of custody.
Michael Sanft (58:06):
And in terms of sealing it, you have a certain tape, color of tape that you would put on the opening of the packaging to indicate that it's been sealed by you?
Steavie Felabom (58:14):
Yes, sir. Ours is red, and then I sign that with my initials and the date that I'm sealing it.
Michael Sanft (58:18):
I see. And then do you put your initials on the actual tape itself or somewhere on the tape side of the bag?
Steavie Felabom (58:24):
Across the tape and the package, so if it's moved, it's evident.
Michael Sanft (58:28):
Okay. And now, at some point in the future, if someone comes along, they can go into that evidence vault and remove your package out, right?
Steavie Felabom (58:37):
If they check it out, yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (58:37):
And if they were to open it, they would have to open it from some other side of the packaging?
Steavie Felabom (58:42):
Typically, yes.
Michael Sanft (58:43):
And then when they seal it to return it back to the evidence vault, they would actually put a different type of tape on it to indicate it came from somewhere else?
Steavie Felabom (58:51):
I've seen red and blue used. So depending on the circumstance, yes.
Michael Sanft (58:54):
Okay. Now, the bins of photographs that we see in the pictures, and I think this is State's Exhibit Number 199.
Speaker 4 (59:12):
[inaudible 00:59:11]. Sorry.
Michael Sanft (59:34):
Showing you what's been marked already as State's Exhibit Number 100. This is one of the photographs you took?
Steavie Felabom (59:41):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (59:42):
Did you rifle through or look through those photographs to see what was in them?
Steavie Felabom (59:45):
I did not, no.
Michael Sanft (59:46):
That would've been somebody else's responsibility?
Steavie Felabom (59:48):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (59:49):
You're just there to take a picture of what was in it?
Steavie Felabom (59:51):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (59:52):
Now, showing you what's been marked and admitted as State's Exhibit Number 99. Is this the other bin that was in the garage that you took a picture of?
Steavie Felabom (01:00:01):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:00:02):
Okay. And once again, these are bins that you are directed to by detectives to take pictures of?
Steavie Felabom (01:00:08):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:00:09):
Okay. Showing you what's been marked and admitted as State's Exhibit Number 98. Do you see over here on the top right, these are the two bins over here that we're talking about, right?
Steavie Felabom (01:00:20):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:00:21):
Do you see this bin over here?
Steavie Felabom (01:00:22):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:00:23):
Did you ever take a picture of what was inside that bin?
Steavie Felabom (01:00:27):
I don't believe so.
Michael Sanft (01:00:28):
Okay. So what we have in terms of evidence in this case would've been the State's Exhibit Number 99 and 100, but not Exhibit Number 98.
Steavie Felabom (01:00:38):
I'm sorry. What's your question, sir?
Michael Sanft (01:00:42):
Meaning that we have the open bins for, this would be 99 and 100, but not for this particular bin over here.
Steavie Felabom (01:00:48):
As far as items were covered, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:00:50):
Okay.
Steavie Felabom (01:00:51):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:00:51):
If I may approach, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:00:51):
You may.
Michael Sanft (01:00:57):
I'm showing you what's been marked as proposed Defense Exhibits F through double U, UU. If you could just look through those photographs real quick and just tell me when you're ready.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:01:17):
Judge, I told Mr. Sanft, I'd stipulate to admission of F through UU.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:01:17):
Okay. Do you want to just have them admitted then at this time?
Michael Sanft (01:01:25):
She might want to still review them.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:01:25):
Okay.
Steavie Felabom (01:03:07):
I believe these are a mixture of both mine and CSA Scott's photos from...
Michael Sanft (01:03:11):
Okay.
Steavie Felabom (01:03:11):
... inside the residence. But they're consistent with the residence.
Michael Sanft (01:03:15):
All right. And just with regards to the record, this has been admitted by stipulation between the State and the Defense. And that would be Defense Exhibit F through Defense Exhibit UU.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:03:23):
They will now be admitted.
Michael Sanft (01:03:23):
It will now be admitted?
Judge Carli Kierny (01:03:23):
Yeah.
Michael Sanft (01:03:28):
Thank you, Your Honor. All right. And just for our edification, showing you just for a couple photographs here, this would be Defense Exhibit G. There you can see what we're talking about. This would've been a photograph taken after the search of the house?
Steavie Felabom (01:03:53):
I believe so, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:03:58):
Defense Exhibit I, as in Isaac, is that another photograph taken after the search of the house?
Steavie Felabom (01:04:04):
That appears so, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:04:06):
This is Defense Exhibit J. Another photograph taken?
Steavie Felabom (01:04:14):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:04:15):
Along with that, this is Defense Exhibit K. Another photograph?
Steavie Felabom (01:04:21):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:04:23):
Defense Exhibit L?
Steavie Felabom (01:04:26):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:04:28):
Defense Exhibit M?
Steavie Felabom (01:04:29):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:04:34):
Okay. Your Honor, I have no further questions. Thank you very much, ma'am.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:04:36):
Okay. Anything further by the State?
Marc DiGiacomo (01:04:40):
No.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:04:41):
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, any questions for this witness? Seeing no hands, Ms. Felabom, you're free to go. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Steavie Felabom (01:04:47):
Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:04:55):
State, who's your next witness?
Marc DiGiacomo (01:04:56):
Justine Gatus.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:04:56):
All right. Before this witness testifies, you may hear testimony regarding drug trafficking, conspiracy, prior federal conviction, and gang affiliation. None of this is offered to show propensity to commit a crime, and you may not consider it for that purpose or any other purpose. It is only offered to establish credibility of statements made by defendant and motive and identity. All right, come on up.
Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
[inaudible 01:05:27]?
Justine Gatus (01:05:31):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
You do solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this action shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Justine Gatus (01:05:36):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
You may be seated.
Justine Gatus (01:05:38):
Thank you. Good morning.
Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
May I please have you state and spell your first and last name for the record?
Justine Gatus (01:05:44):
Justine, J-U-S-T-I-N-E, Gatus, G-A-T-U-S.
Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:05:50):
You may proceed, Mr. DiGiacomo.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:05:50):
Ma'am, how are you employed?
Justine Gatus (01:05:50):
I'm a homicide detective with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:05:55):
How long have you been with Metro?
Justine Gatus (01:05:57):
Coming up on 20 years. I've been in homicide for over eight.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:06:02):
And can you describe how homicide is set up at the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department?
Justine Gatus (01:06:07):
So we have four teams that work active calls. Each team has six detectives, and each of those six, basically, we kind of rotate all throughout the entire day of detectives for who gets the next call in order as it just kind of comes down the line.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:06:25):
Back in 2023, were you assigned to a particular squad?
Justine Gatus (01:06:39):
Yes, I was.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:06:39):
And who was your sergeant?
Justine Gatus (01:06:39):
Back then it was Igor DeCaro.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:06:39):
Is he still your sergeant today?
Justine Gatus (01:06:40):
Yes, he is.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:06:42):
And on your squad, was there a person by the name of Cliff Mogg?
Justine Gatus (01:06:46):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:06:46):
And at some point did you become aware that he was investigating the Tupac Shakur homicide?
Justine Gatus (01:06:54):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:06:56):
I'm going to direct your attention to July of 2023. Were you present during the execution of the search warrant at the residence?
Justine Gatus (01:07:07):
Yes, I was.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:07:09):
And while you were present for that search warrant, were there two bins located? I'm going to put up State's Exhibit 98. Were there two bins located?
Justine Gatus (01:07:19):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:07:20):
What happened to those two bins?
Justine Gatus (01:07:22):
Those bins were collected and transported to Metro headquarters and ultimately impounded. Or I'm sorry, the bins themselves were ultimately released back.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:07:32):
At Metro headquarters, those bins were searched?
Justine Gatus (01:07:35):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:07:36):
Certain items were removed?
Justine Gatus (01:07:38):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:07:38):
And then those bins were returned?
Justine Gatus (01:07:39):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:07:43):
And then who impounded the items that were taken out of that bin?
Justine Gatus (01:07:48):
Detective Mogg.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:07:51):
When did Detective Mogg officially retire from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department?
Justine Gatus (01:07:57):
I want to say it was August. I know it was August of '23, but I think maybe August 12th of 2023.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:08:04):
And sometime after August 12th of '23, in September of '23, did you become aware that this case was indicted by the Clark County Grand Jury?
Justine Gatus (01:08:12):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:08:12):
Were you and Sergeant DeCaro assigned a role to assist now Investigator Mogg if he needed a peace officer?
Justine Gatus (01:08:26):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:08:27):
And I'm going to go through just some of those things, but on April 23rd of 2026, did you go to the evidence vault?
Justine Gatus (01:08:36):
Yes, I did.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:08:37):
Who was with you at the evidence vault?
Justine Gatus (01:08:40):
You and Mr. Banu, Igor DeCaro, Mike Sanft, his investigator, Aaron Stanton, and the... I'm sorry, I don't know your name. His female assistant partner.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:08:52):
Megan?
Justine Gatus (01:08:52):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:08:52):
Okay. Was Cliff Mogg there too?
Justine Gatus (01:08:56):
Yes, he was.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:08:57):
And what was the purpose of us all going down to the vault?
Justine Gatus (01:09:01):
To review the evidence that has been impounded for this case.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:09:05):
And were you and Mr. DeCaro, the peace officers, or Sergeant DeCaro, sorry, the peace officers that were present for purposes of touching the evidence, opening the evidence, reviewing the evidence with the Defense And the State?
Justine Gatus (01:09:21):
Yep. And then I resealed the evidence. That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:09:25):
Show you what's been marked as State's Proposed Exhibit Number 132. Is that the original impound from Detective Mogg's that we wound up opening and going through everything in?
Justine Gatus (01:09:38):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:09:39):
I'm going to go through all these. This one I'm going to do last because there's a lot of them. Showing you State's Proposed Exhibit Number 135. Was that an item that was in this impound package?
Marc DiGiacomo (01:10:01):
Was that an item that was in this impound package?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:10:04):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:10:05):
Move to admit 135.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:10:07):
Any objection?
Speaker 5 (01:10:07):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:10:08):
So admitted.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:10:12):
Showing you what's been marked as state's proposed exhibit 136. Is that an item that was in there?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:10:18):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:10:21):
Now, state's proposed 134 is a package. It's a proposed package. I just want you to look through there. Were 134A, B, C and D all within that package?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:10:45):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:10:46):
Move to admit ... I guess I should do 134 and A through D so we have the package to keep in there.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:10:51):
Any objection?
Speaker 5 (01:10:51):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:10:55):
That'd be 134A, B, C and D.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:10:58):
And one of those items, 134D, is a magazine about Biggie Smalls.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:11:06):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:11:22):
There were some miscellaneous items collected, but I think we are all putting in 133, but I don't have a cover for 133. Madam Clerk, is there any cover for 133 or do we just have them separate?
Clerk (01:11:45):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:11:46):
Off the bag. Perfect. Something to keep it in. 133, I think is technically the bag, but there's a Lakers ticket that's marked. That was in there?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:12:05):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:12:11):
133A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K and L were all within this package.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:12:31):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:12:31):
Move to admit the 133 and 133A through L.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:12:37):
Any objection?
Speaker 5 (01:12:38):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:12:39):
So admitted.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:12:40):
And then lastly, was there this-
Detective Justine Gatus (01:12:44):
Photo book, yeah.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:12:45):
... photo book 137?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:12:48):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:12:49):
And then were there a number of items that were inside this photo book?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:12:52):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:12:53):
And the clerk and the defense and I have had these marked as 137A through ... I think the last one is U. If you want to briefly flip through those. [inaudible 01:13:47]. Judge, is 136 admitted? I believe I offered it.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:13:56):
[inaudible 01:13:57]?
Clerk (01:13:56):
It is not.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:13:58):
It is not.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:13:58):
Oh. I think you acknowledged this was in there.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:14:00):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:14:00):
Move to admit 136.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:14:00):
Any objection?
Speaker 5 (01:14:00):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:14:00):
So admitted.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:14:06):
All of those were within this, call it scrapbook, for lack of a better term?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:14:11):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:14:13):
So I want to go through some of these items, and if you put it on the overhead. Ooh, that's bad. This item 136 ... Actually, I think we should put them here, because otherwise, it just [inaudible 01:14:39]. 136 is actually what appears to be ... Well, it says an affidavit and a search warrant.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:14:55):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:14:55):
From the Compton PD.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:14:57):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:14:57):
And it appears that it's dated May 27th of 1997.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:15:02):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:15:07):
It appears that it's at 1524 South California Ave. in Compton?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:15:12):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:15:15):
And on the back, there is a handwritten return.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:15:21):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:15:22):
One of the items that was recovered, it says, number four, "Money due bill for the Monte Carlo Casino."
Detective Justine Gatus (01:15:29):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:15:37):
Let's go through the items that were in the scrapbook and I just messed up their entire order, so ... I guess it doesn't matter which order. Let me just show some of the newspaper articles. So state's exhibit number 137H.
Clerk (01:15:57):
I'm sorry, you said 137?
Marc DiGiacomo (01:16:00):
137H. Did we-
Clerk (01:16:01):
I don't have that listed as admitted just yet.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:16:05):
Can I offer everything 137 and 137A through U?
Clerk (01:16:07):
You listed it, but did you prefer it to be admitted?
Judge Carli Kierny (01:16:07):
Yes. It will be admitted at this time.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:16:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (01:16:07):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:16:07):
Okay, perfect. By stipulation.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:16:21):
This appears to be an article about Mr. Shakur's death.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:16:27):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:16:46):
137G, another one about the death of Mr. Shakur and this one's actually dated September 19th of '96.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:16:51):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:17:03):
137U is another article that was found in there talking about Mr. Knight being kept in jail.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:17:27):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:17:42):
137 appears to be a newspaper article about a bad rap for new artists.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:17:52):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:18:00):
137B, an article about Mr. Shakur being in a fight with the MGM?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:18:12):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:18:27):
137C, an article about a Death Row exec didn't leave and this is from September 14th of 1996.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:18:52):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:18:53):
This one. This is 137D. I don't want to peel it back, but I guess we can peel that back. It appears to be the community mourns and there's a picture of his death that's going to send a strong message to the rap community. It looks like an [inaudible 01:19:15] industry.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:19:16):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:19:26):
And if we ... I don't know if I can zoom this in. It appears to be discussing the death of Tupac Shakur.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:20:04):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:20:04):
137E, Star Rapper Tupac Shakur Badly Wounded as a newspaper article.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:20:09):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:20:12):
Are you aware that Tupac Shakur died on September 13th?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:20:14):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:20:15):
So this appears to be prior to September 13th?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:20:18):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:20:40):
137F. Let me back out just a little bit. There's an article about police raids targeting or sparked by Shakur's death.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:20:53):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:20:55):
And this one actually has a handwritten date that says 09/03 of '96.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:20:58):
10/03 of '96.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:21:17):
I'm sorry, 10/ 03 of '96.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:21:18):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:21:29):
137I, you can probably read it without me pulling it out. This one is Rappers, Muslims Gather for Peace and it's dated September 23rd of 1996.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:21:36):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:21:50):
137J appears to be an article titled Knight related to Suge Knight.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:21:58):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:22:08):
Hold up to see the whole thing, 137K. It's an article entitled 22 Held in Shootings, Possible Shakur Payback.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:22:24):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:22:29):
As well as another piece of article, Complex Life Comes to an End.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:22:34):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:22:38):
And it looks like it discusses the death of Mr. Shakur on the back.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:22:42):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:23:28):
137L. This appears to be an article about the death of Biggie Smalls.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:23:30):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:23:54):
137A, or sorry, 37M, this one says Man Who Fought With Shakur on Videotape is Released.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:24:03):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:24:04):
If we zoom in, it discusses the arrest of Orlando Anderson for a different crime as well as discussion of retaliation in the neighborhood.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:24:19):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:24:28):
137N, there's an article about gangster rap or former Notorious B.I.G. being slain?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:24:45):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:24:53):
137O, an article about Gang Ties Suspected in Killings.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:24:59):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:25:19):
137P, an article from September 17th, sorry, September 16th, 1996, obviously related to Tupac.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:25:26):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:25:34):
137Q, this is about a rap lawyers contending detective lie.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:25:53):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:25:54):
And it starts off with, "They seek dismissal of judge's ruling and probation case saying Las Vegas investigator committed perjury about Marion Suge Knight's alleged role in the assault before Tupac Shakur's slaying."
Detective Justine Gatus (01:26:07):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:26:34):
137R. This appears to be a combination of both Biggie and Tupac's murder of Bullet-Riddled Rap is how it's titled.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:26:44):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:26:51):
And then it says, "Is the rivalry escalating despite so-called truce?"
Detective Justine Gatus (01:26:55):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:27:22):
Just a couple more, Detective. 137S, an article entitled Living Dangerously.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:27:35):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:27:35):
And it appears, if you look really close at the bottom, this is from People Magazine in September 23rd of 1996.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:27:50):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:28:06):
137T, the last on this one, an article entitled on March 10th of 1997, No Easy Answers for Violence in Gangsta Rap.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:28:19):
That's correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:28:24):
Now in addition to being the, let's call you, [inaudible 01:28:28] impounding officer at the vault on April 23rd, did there come a point in time when you went as a law enforcement officer to California to interview certain individuals?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:28:41):
Yes, I did.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:28:43):
Do you recall the interviewed the individuals you interviewed?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:28:50):
Yes, I do.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:28:51):
Can you tell me who they were?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:28:53):
We spoke with Yusef Jah, Rasheena Smith, Corey Edwards, Roger Williams. I believe there was one more. I can't remember.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:29:07):
Mop James?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:29:09):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:29:09):
James McDonald?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:29:10):
Yes, James McDonald. That's who it was.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:29:13):
Okay. In addition to that, did you become aware that in this proceeding ... Well, let me ask you this. As a homicide detective, do you know what a compelling order is?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:29:24):
Yes, I do.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:29:24):
What's a compelling order?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:29:27):
It's basically an order issued by ... Well, in this example, it's issued by the state of California, compelling witnesses who live there to appear in front of the court.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:29:37):
We have to ask our court to issue some documentation and then we have to ask their court for-
Detective Justine Gatus (01:29:43):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:29:45):
Judge, I'd ask you to take judicial notice that you've issued compelling orders for Trayvon Lane, Roger Williams, James McDonald, Corey Edwards and a [inaudible 01:29:57].
Judge Carli Kierny (01:30:03):
Let me make sure I have all those actually. All right.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:30:06):
There might be a sixth one, actually. Oh, Malcolm Greenidge would be the sixth one.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:30:40):
All right. Corey Edwards, I'll take judicial notice of that one. Roger Williams, I'll take judicial notice of that one. James McDonalds, sorry, James McDonald, I'll take judicial notice of that one. And then there's another block of them a little later.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:31:20):
Correct. I think [inaudible 01:31:21] and Trayvon Lane came a little later.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:31:31):
Trayvon Brooks, I'll take judicial notice of that.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:31:33):
[inaudible 01:31:34].
Judge Carli Kierny (01:31:35):
Sorry, Trayvon Lane, I'll take judicial notice of that.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:31:38):
Trayvon Lane.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:31:38):
And, all right, [inaudible 01:31:47].
Marc DiGiacomo (01:31:47):
And then recently, Malcolm Greenidge.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:31:52):
Recently, Malcolm Greenidge. Michael Payne?
Marc DiGiacomo (01:31:59):
What?
Judge Carli Kierny (01:32:06):
Michael Payne?
Marc DiGiacomo (01:32:08):
Michael Payne was a transport order.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:32:24):
Okay. Malcolm Greenidge, all right, I'll take judicial notice of that.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:32:27):
Overall six?
Judge Carli Kierny (01:32:28):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:32:30):
Did you become aware that certain of those six individuals weren't cooperative even though they had been served papers by California?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:32:43):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:32:44):
And so did you coordinate with anyone to assist California authorities in locating these individuals?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:32:53):
I did.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:32:54):
Oh, let me back up. There was also someone in New York that there's a compelling order for, correct?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:33:01):
I'm not sure if the order was served or issued, but yes, I know the individual in New York.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:33:08):
Did you locate someone by the name of Anthony Gomez in New York?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:33:13):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:33:14):
And he is currently on probation?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:33:17):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:33:19):
And there's an effort to locate what jurisdiction he was in order to get a compelling order?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:33:24):
Yes, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:33:30):
All right. What did you do with the people who weren't cooperative despite the California authorities ordering them to come to Nevada?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:33:38):
We went up on their phones, which means we received orders to where we can ping their phone location to try to identify where they were specifically at.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:33:49):
And for those people. Well, how many pings do you think you did?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:33:55):
I think about five.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:33:56):
And do you remember which five you had to do ping on?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:34:00):
Corey Edwards, [inaudible 01:34:02], Roger Williams.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:34:16):
Was there Malcolm Greenidge-
Detective Justine Gatus (01:34:18):
Yes. Malcolm was, yes. And I can't remember the last one. I know we've already spoke about them though.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:34:27):
Devonta ... Well, no. How about Devonta Lee? Did you have to get one?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:34:28):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:34:30):
Now, Devonta Lee was local, so we didn't need a compelling order.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:34:32):
Correct.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:34:36):
Last Friday, did you coordinate with our local authorities as well as authorities in California in order to effectuate an arrest warrant in California [inaudible 01:34:51]?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:34:49):
Yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:34:50):
And who did you try to effectuate an arrest warrant on?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:34:55):
Corey Edwards.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:34:55):
And was he located at his residence?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:34:58):
No.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:35:01):
Was there any other person associated with Corey that was missing from his residence?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:09):
Yes, there was.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:35:11):
And who was that?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:11):
His mother.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:35:13):
And is your understanding that she is 95 years old and invalid?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:18):
She's in poor health, yes.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:35:21):
On Monday, was there an effort at another location in Compton to effectuate an arrest warrant for Mr. Edwards?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:29):
Yes, there was.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:35:29):
And was that successful?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:32):
No, sir.
Marc DiGiacomo (01:35:36):
Thank you, Detective. I'll pass the witness.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:37):
Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:35:38):
All right. Cross-examination, Mr. Sanft.
Michael Sanft (01:35:45):
Hello.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:48):
Hi.
Michael Sanft (01:35:48):
How are you doing, Detective Gatus?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:49):
I'm good. How are you?
Michael Sanft (01:35:51):
I'm doing all right, thank you. Thank you for appearing here today.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:35:54):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:35:55):
Now, your testimony is based on your work with Clifford Mogg from 2023 on?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:36:05):
Well, I've worked with retired Detective Mogg since 2018.
Michael Sanft (01:36:11):
Okay. So in 2018 to 2023, what did you do in furtherance of this case?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:36:17):
I personally did not do the extensive amount of anything. It primarily was being investigated by Detective Mogg.
Michael Sanft (01:36:27):
Right. And so from 2018 to 2023, you didn't do anything of real note. Would that be fair to say?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:36:38):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:36:39):
Okay. Now, as a detective with Metro, obviously you have to qualify to become a detective in the homicide division of Metro.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:36:49):
We have a testing process.
Michael Sanft (01:36:51):
Yeah. And it's one of those things where ... Just because I asked to be on the homicide team doesn't mean I'm going to get on the homicide team, at least I demonstrate qualifications to get there.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:01):
More or less, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:37:02):
Yeah. Now in terms of your training and experience though, fair to say it starts in the police academy as your community as a cadet before you become a full-fledged officer?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:13):
It's a police recruit, but yes.
Michael Sanft (01:37:14):
Okay. And while you're in the academy, you learn skills that would help you become a successful police officer in our community.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:20):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:37:22):
One of those things that you learn, of course, is how to write reports.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:25):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:37:27):
Officer's reports are a crucial tool that you would use in furtherance of your job as a police officer in Las Vegas.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:35):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:37:36):
With regards to police officer's reports, sometimes you don't have to write a report. I would assume, for instance, if you pull someone for a traffic ticket and on the citation, you could write some notes or something along those lines, that wouldn't require you to do a police report?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:48):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (01:37:49):
Or officer's report?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:50):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:37:51):
All right. But in terms of when you're conducting an investigation, fair to say that typically a officer's report would be written?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:37:58):
Typically, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:37:59):
Yes. Now, can you explain to the jury why an officer's report would be important in the furtherance of an investigation?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:38:06):
The officer's report primarily is for our own reflection to recall really all the steps that we took throughout the entirety of an investigation. So it's a document that we can refer back to without going to each and every document specifically.
Michael Sanft (01:38:21):
Now, fair to say though that the officer's report also helps in the event that, say for instance, you get promoted to become a sergeant and someone else takes over your caseload because you're no longer the detective, right?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:38:33):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:38:34):
They would look at that officer's report to help them get up to speed as to what your investigation was at the time you get promoted to become a sergeant?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:38:41):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:38:41):
Or lieutenant?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:38:42):
Yeah.
Michael Sanft (01:38:42):
Or captain?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:38:44):
I'll never see that, but yes.
Michael Sanft (01:38:45):
Just hopeful, to be hopeful.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:38:45):
Yeah.
Michael Sanft (01:38:48):
But with regards to your officer's report, for instance, when you are about ready to move on in the next phase of your career, for instance, those officer reports typically are prepared and completed upon your departure to whatever it is you're going to do next.
Detective Justine Gatus (01:39:04):
Most of the time, they try to get those done. Sometimes they're not.
Michael Sanft (01:39:08):
Sure. Now, in terms of, "Sometimes they're not," can you tell us when is there an exception to the rule of when you do your officer's report after, say for instance, when you retire?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:39:19):
I haven't retired yet. I don't know. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Michael Sanft (01:39:26):
But fair to say, of course, that in the event of an actual complete departure from the department, meaning you move on in your life doing something else, that those officer's reports should be completed prior to departing the department?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:39:42):
I know the department would like them completed, but again, sometimes they're just not. I've seen many cases where they're still open officers reports with people who are no longer on.
Michael Sanft (01:39:51):
Sure. And so with regards to those open officer's reports, fair enough, they get created at some point in the future, how about one year after they retire?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:40:08):
I don't know. Are you asking would they or could they?
Michael Sanft (01:40:11):
Well, have you ever seen an officer's report being filed a year after an officer retires from the department?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:40:16):
Authored by the original investigator? No. A lot of times, there'll be either one of the guys from cold case that will pick up a case and finish that up. And so then that will be completed after the originating officer retired.
Michael Sanft (01:40:30):
Okay. Well, what about two years after the main officer or detective in this case retires, have you seen anyone actually finish up this officer's report two years after he retires?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:40:43):
Submit it still as an officer? No.
Michael Sanft (01:40:44):
No. Three years?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:40:46):
No.
Michael Sanft (01:40:48):
And fair to say that there's common sense reasons for that, right? You want to make sure that your report is accurate, right?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:40:55):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:40:55):
Because accuracy is important in what you do as a police officer?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:40:58):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:40:59):
You want to make sure that your report is written in such a way, like you said before, someone could take that report and continue on with the investigation who is still a detective?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:08):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:41:08):
Okay. And also that report in essence becomes a documentation of all the effort that that detective puts into the file, right?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:17):
Most. Generally most of it, yes. It might not have everything in it, but there's the vast majority typically goes in the officer's report.
Michael Sanft (01:41:25):
Sure. Now in this particular case, as you're sitting here right now, you work for the Metropolitan Police Department?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:31):
Yes, I do.
Michael Sanft (01:41:32):
Do you work for the District Attorney's Office?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:34):
No, I do not.
Michael Sanft (01:41:35):
And the reason why you don't work for them is because they're two separate agencies, right?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:38):
They are.
Michael Sanft (01:41:39):
They have two different purposes, correct?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:41):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:41:42):
Your job as a police officer with Metro is to investigate and determine facts, fair?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:47):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:41:48):
Now at some point in the future, the District Attorney's Office, their job is to determine if they want to prosecute a case and actually litigate it in front of this jury, right?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:57):
Yes. Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:41:57):
That's not your role, your role is just to find the facts?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:41:59):
And present it to them, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:42:00):
And present it to the District Attorney's Office?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:42:02):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:42:03):
Okay. Now they do have investigators that work for them-
Detective Justine Gatus (01:42:06):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:42:07):
... right? But fair to say those investigators are not doing what you're doing, which is looking for facts?
Marc DiGiacomo (01:42:14):
Well, I object to looking for facts and one calls for speculation.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:42:19):
What's your response?
Michael Sanft (01:42:22):
I'm just asking for her experience as a detective as to how investigators fit into the overall picture of what we're talking about here. I don't believe it's speculation.
Judge Carli Kierny (01:42:30):
Can you rephrase it because I forgot the original question?
Michael Sanft (01:42:35):
So with regards to your role and the experience you've had as a police officer, have you ever seen a Clark County District Attorney investigator be the primary person to put on an investigation?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:42:52):
Like as the lead investigator? No.
Michael Sanft (01:42:55):
Yes, that's correct. So the answer is no?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:42:58):
Correct. Not in my experience.
Michael Sanft (01:42:59):
And not in your experience. Now, in terms of what you're doing here, your testimony here was specifically about the search warrant and what happened when you located, whatever it is you located during the course of the search warrant, right?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:43:14):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:43:15):
So in the search warrant itself, did you apply for that search warrant?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:43:18):
No, I did not.
Michael Sanft (01:43:18):
Now typically as a detective, when you're applying for a search warrant, you fill out an affidavit?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:43:23):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:43:24):
And at the end you sign it, attesting it to be true and correct to the best of your ability?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:43:28):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:43:29):
And you detail in that application for a search warrant the location and what you intend on finding as a result of going into somebody's house?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:43:39):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:43:39):
Okay. That would be the purview of whoever the lead detective is at that particular time?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:43:45):
Yeah or who was just writing the search ... There's a lot of times people write search warrants when they're not lead detectives, but yes, I agree with what you're saying for the most part.
Michael Sanft (01:43:56):
And in this case, Detective Mogg was the responsible detective to petition for that search warrant?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:02):
Yes, he was.
Michael Sanft (01:44:02):
And he was on who signed that affidavit?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:04):
Yes, he was.
Michael Sanft (01:44:05):
Now you were on scene as a detective to help him with that, with the execution of the search warrant?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:11):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:44:11):
And it isn't just you and Detective Mogg, there's other people from Metro that's present as well?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:16):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:44:17):
Other detectives as well?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:18):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:44:18):
As well as the crime scene analyst that we have on scene?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:18):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:44:22):
And they're all looking for information?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:23):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:44:24):
Now the information that you're looking for is based upon my client's residence, right? Mr. Davis' residence?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:30):
For that search warrant, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:44:31):
And you are looking for evidence that would take you back 30 years to whether or not that person was involved in the murder of Tupac Shakur?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:40):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:44:41):
Okay. So the information that we've received here today is the fruits of your labor from that search warrant?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:46):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:44:47):
Okay. Now, in addition to that, there were numerous different electronic devices that was taken from the scene?
Detective Justine Gatus (01:44:55):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:44:56):
Now, are you aware that one of the intents or one of the focuses of the search was to look for evidence or facts-
Michael Sanft (01:45:00):
... the search was to look for evidence or facts specifically about the writing of a book?
Detective Gaddis (01:45:07):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:45:08):
Okay. Meaning the book that you had shown to the jury, that particular book, there was a search or at least an intent to look for evidence that would help support whether Mr. Davis had a [inaudible 01:45:21]?
Detective Gaddis (01:45:22):
I don't think I reviewed a book up here when I was being shown the evidence. I know the book that you're referring to.
Michael Sanft (01:45:27):
Right. And I'm just showing you... Once again, if I could have... Showing you what's been marked admitted as State's Exhibit 104, this document or this book right here.
Detective Gaddis (01:46:01):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:46:02):
Okay. So this book was one of the focuses of the search?
Detective Gaddis (01:46:07):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:46:08):
And in the application for the search warrant, fair to say that as a detective, you would read the parameters in which Mr. or Detective Mogg at the time had requested in terms of the purpose of the search?
Detective Gaddis (01:46:24):
He would have documented that in there, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:46:26):
Yeah. And for instance, would a review of the application and affidavit of search warrant help refresh your recollection as to what Detective Mogg had requested from a court to allow him to search for?
Detective Gaddis (01:46:40):
I actually have not read the full document before.
Michael Sanft (01:46:42):
Oh.
Detective Gaddis (01:46:43):
I can review it if you'd like. But yeah, I, up to this point, have not read the full document.
Michael Sanft (01:46:51):
So you're saying though that the person that could best tell this jury what he applied for would be Detective Mogg?
Detective Gaddis (01:46:58):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:46:58):
Okay. Thank you. Now, in addition to that, looking at the State's Exhibit number 104, the name that's on top over here, did this name have any significance to you in participating in the search warrant in this case?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:16):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:47:17):
What significance does this name have to you?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:19):
We knew that was Dwayne Davis's nickname or street name.
Michael Sanft (01:47:22):
Is that correctly spelled?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:24):
I don't know.
Michael Sanft (01:47:26):
Yeah. And then with regards to this person right here, do you know who this person was?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:30):
Yes, I do now.
Michael Sanft (01:47:31):
Who was that person?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:32):
Yusuf Jah.
Michael Sanft (01:47:34):
Now, with regards to Yusuf Jah, can you tell the jury a little bit about who he is?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:41):
To my understanding, he was the co-author of the book.
Michael Sanft (01:47:46):
Okay. Now, you had a chance at some point to speak with Mr. Jah?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:53):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:47:55):
And just for my recollection, do you recall when you spoke to him?
Detective Gaddis (01:47:58):
It was on about Memorial Day of this year.
Michael Sanft (01:48:02):
So 2026?
Detective Gaddis (01:48:03):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:48:03):
Memorial Day? Do you recall when the grand jury occurred with regards to this case?
Detective Gaddis (01:48:11):
In 2023.
Michael Sanft (01:48:14):
All right. And so explain a little bit to the jury what a grand jury is.
Detective Gaddis (01:48:21):
It's a jury that have been assimilated here at the Clark County Regional Justice Center. They hear cases and they determine if there is sufficient cause to issue an indictment on the accused.
Michael Sanft (01:48:36):
And typically that would be something, if you were the primary detective, you would've been involved in this particular one, but you were not?
Detective Gaddis (01:48:42):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (01:48:44):
Okay. That would be something that Detective Mogg would've been responsible for?
Detective Gaddis (01:48:47):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:48:48):
Okay. Now, in addition to that, with regards to Yusuf, we had read off a bunch of names the state had, and I want to make sure I'm clear here. Was his name read off as one of the names that they had issued some type of warrant or something for in this case?
Detective Gaddis (01:49:05):
Not to my knowledge, no.
Michael Sanft (01:49:06):
Okay. So you interviewed Yusuf about May of this year, he's on the book cover, but you don't ask the court for a warrant for his arrest in California?
Detective Gaddis (01:49:17):
No, I did not.
Michael Sanft (01:49:18):
Or some type of notice in California, "Hey, you need to show up to court?"
Detective Gaddis (01:49:20):
No, I did not.
Michael Sanft (01:49:23):
Okay. And did you ever at any point go down after your meeting with Yusuf to knock on his door again and say, "Hey, Yusuf, can you please come to Nevada based upon our interview or discussion?"
Detective Gaddis (01:49:34):
No, I did not.
Michael Sanft (01:49:36):
Now, in addition to that, when you went down to speak to Yusuf, at that particular time, you're with Clifford Mogg, right?
Detective Gaddis (01:49:44):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (01:49:45):
Now at that particular point, Clifford Mogg is not a detective with Metro?
Detective Gaddis (01:49:48):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:49:49):
He had been retired at that point how many years?
Detective Gaddis (01:49:52):
Two and a half maybe.
Michael Sanft (01:49:54):
Okay. And so you accompanied him down to California to do that interview with Yusuf?
Detective Gaddis (01:49:59):
With several people, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:50:00):
Okay. But you are going down as a police officer with the Metropolitan Police Department at that particular point?
Detective Gaddis (01:50:07):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:50:08):
But not Clifford Mogg? He's not a police officer at that point?
Detective Gaddis (01:50:13):
Correct, he was not.
Michael Sanft (01:50:14):
He is an investigator with the Clark County District Attorney's Office?
Detective Gaddis (01:50:17):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:50:18):
Now, based upon that particular interview, did you conduct that interview?
Detective Gaddis (01:50:24):
No. Primarily Detective Mogg did, or Investigator Mogg did.
Michael Sanft (01:50:27):
Sure. And after that interview, did you draft an officer's report documenting what you learned in the course of that interview?
Detective Gaddis (01:50:35):
No, I did not.
Michael Sanft (01:50:36):
That would be something that Detective Mogg or Mr. Mogg would've done?
Detective Gaddis (01:50:40):
Sometimes we don't write an officer's report just for an interview synopsis. We'll typically get those transcribed.
Michael Sanft (01:50:46):
Okay. Now, in this case, for instance, the officer's report are pretty important, right?
Detective Gaddis (01:50:53):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:50:54):
And we talked a little about going to the evidence locker and we were all present at the evidence locker, right?
Detective Gaddis (01:51:02):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:51:03):
It's my assistant, the guilty looking one over there with the glasses, myself and my investigator, as well as Mr. DiGiacomo, Mr. Burnu, Clifford Mogg, and yourself?
Detective Gaddis (01:51:15):
And my Sergeant, Igor DeCarlo.
Michael Sanft (01:51:17):
Yeah. Now, after that particular incident, you wrote an officer's report, right?
Detective Gaddis (01:51:21):
That one I did, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:51:22):
Right. Once again, it's important to document what happens on a given event?
Detective Gaddis (01:51:27):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:51:27):
Okay. Now, in this particular regard, did you at any point of your participation in this case and that submission of that report ever view a officer's report from Clifford Mogg?
Detective Gaddis (01:51:40):
No. I have not reviewed an officer's report from him.
Michael Sanft (01:51:43):
Are you aware that Clifford Mogg began his responsibilities as the main detective on this case in either 2017 or '18?
Detective Gaddis (01:51:55):
To my understanding, yes, that's correct.
Michael Sanft (01:51:58):
And he had been the investigator from that time period, and we'll just give you the benefit of doubt, 2018, all the way up to 2023 when he retired?
Detective Gaddis (01:52:05):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:52:06):
But as of right now, as you sit here, you've never read an officer's report from Detective Mogg in between that time period?
Detective Gaddis (01:52:11):
Pertaining to this investigation, no.
Michael Sanft (01:52:13):
No. Now, in addition to that, there was some discussion about people. Was there ever a compelling order or a warrant issued for Suge Knight in this case?
Detective Gaddis (01:52:33):
Not to my knowledge. Or if there was, I didn't have a role in that.
Michael Sanft (01:52:37):
Right. And fair to say you know exactly where Suge Knight is today?
Detective Gaddis (01:52:39):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:52:40):
He's actually in custody?
Detective Gaddis (01:52:41):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:52:42):
Okay. Did you ever at any point issue a compelling order or a warrant for Foxy Brown?
Detective Gaddis (01:52:51):
I did not.
Michael Sanft (01:52:52):
Okay. Do you know who she is?
Detective Gaddis (01:52:55):
I don't.
Michael Sanft (01:52:57):
Okay. That would've been something that maybe Mr. Mogg would know of?
Detective Gaddis (01:53:01):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:53:03):
Okay. How about for an individual named Big Meech from Detroit?
Detective Gaddis (01:53:08):
I don't know who that is.
Michael Sanft (01:53:09):
Once again-
Detective Gaddis (01:53:09):
I have not issued a... Yes. And the same answer that Detective Mogg would be... He would have more knowledge on that.
Michael Sanft (01:53:17):
Now, the articles that we took a look at here that the jury was introduced to, do you know any reason, besides the fact that they were taken from my client's house... Do you know who put those articles together?
Detective Gaddis (01:53:32):
I do not.
Michael Sanft (01:53:32):
Do you know the purpose of those articles?
Detective Gaddis (01:53:34):
I do not.
Michael Sanft (01:53:36):
Okay. Now, fair to say in the course and scope of your investigation as a detective now, one of the things that you would look for if you were looking at a suspect would be through their phone, right?
Detective Gaddis (01:53:46):
In today's age, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:53:48):
Yeah. And one of the things you look for either on their phone or on their computers would be maybe search history?
Detective Gaddis (01:53:54):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:53:55):
And what you're looking for is if a person is Googling an address and Googling up a shooting that took place on the corner of Charleston and, I don't know, [inaudible 01:54:06], and they're doing it over and over again, that that would lend some issue as to why you're looking up the details of a shooting that, say, nobody knows, right?
Detective Gaddis (01:54:14):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:54:15):
And that would help you determine whether that person has knowledge of a shooting that pretty much nobody else would know?
Detective Gaddis (01:54:21):
I can't say nobody else would know, but they would show that they do have knowledge of the incident occurring, yes.
Michael Sanft (01:54:27):
Right. Now, in terms of those articles though, can you say that that's what that was for?
Detective Gaddis (01:54:33):
I cannot.
Michael Sanft (01:54:34):
Now, in addition to that, in your experience... We had spoken a little bit about this folder here. I'm going to show you again for the jury. This is State's Exhibit 37.
Mr. DiGiacomo (01:54:58):
137.
Michael Sanft (01:54:58):
Hmm?
Mr. DiGiacomo (01:54:58):
It's 137.
Michael Sanft (01:55:04):
Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. 137. Do you remember this?
Detective Gaddis (01:55:06):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:55:06):
Okay. And I just want to make sure I'm not color blind, but is this blue?
Detective Gaddis (01:55:10):
No, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:55:11):
Yeah. There looks like there might be a candy cane on top of it.
Detective Gaddis (01:55:16):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (01:55:17):
And something else that's there. It looks like a little snowman or something like that. Do you know what the purpose of this folder was?
Detective Gaddis (01:55:23):
No, other than it being just like a scrapbook type.
Michael Sanft (01:55:27):
But nothing else besides that?
Detective Gaddis (01:55:29):
I don't know any other relevance to that.
Michael Sanft (01:55:32):
Okay. And just for the record, it's got green in here as well. It looks like a pretty effective notebook.
Detective Gaddis (01:55:36):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:55:36):
Or folder.
Detective Gaddis (01:55:38):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:55:39):
Okay. Now, one of the things that you had shared with us as well is the search warrant in this case that was found on scene. This would be State's Exhibit 136. Do you recall looking at this particular document here?
Detective Gaddis (01:56:13):
Yes, I do.
Michael Sanft (01:56:15):
In terms of this document, this is a document that looks like this occurred back in May of 1997?
Detective Gaddis (01:56:23):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:56:24):
And this obviously was in a different state, this is California?
Detective Gaddis (01:56:28):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:56:29):
And this was a search warrant of what looks like to be a house that would've been attributed to my client.
Detective Gaddis (01:56:36):
I'm not sure who it is who resided there then. I know the address is there, the California-
Michael Sanft (01:56:42):
Yeah, it would be at the California address that's on the next page, right?
Detective Gaddis (01:56:44):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:56:44):
I just don't want to question again, but let's turn to the last page here. One of the things that was made mention by the state, and just pointing the jury to the receipt of property taken, that's our property return.
Detective Gaddis (01:56:55):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:56:55):
Or search warrant return. Okay.
Detective Gaddis (01:56:56):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (01:56:57):
And in it, it identifies various different things that was taken from that particular residence.
Detective Gaddis (01:57:02):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:57:03):
Now, one of the things that's in here, for instance, is this line number four, money due bill for the Monte Carlo Casino. Do you see that?
Detective Gaddis (01:57:11):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:57:12):
Do you have that?
Detective Gaddis (01:57:12):
No, I do not.
Michael Sanft (01:57:13):
Was there any copy of that in the house that you searched in 2023?
Detective Gaddis (01:57:17):
Not that we found.
Michael Sanft (01:57:18):
And with regards to that particular description there, can you tell us, for instance, just by the description alone, when that money due bill was dated?
Detective Gaddis (01:57:27):
I don't know from that description. We just know when the search warrant was issued, so I would assume previous to that issue date.
Michael Sanft (01:57:36):
Right. But we don't know an exact date?
Detective Gaddis (01:57:37):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:57:39):
And the other things that are on here, for instance, the nine miscellaneous photographs, all these things are things that another detective wrote down in the course and scope of their investigation?
Detective Gaddis (01:57:49):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:57:50):
Okay. Now, in addition to that, when you were in Mr. Davis's home, you had identified or there were various different electronic devices that were seized?
Detective Gaddis (01:58:02):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:58:03):
Okay. Now, with regard to those electronic devices, there were quite a few?
Detective Gaddis (01:58:07):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:58:09):
Those electronic devices, and I just want to make sure I'm clear here, you had taken a Dell Inspiron 1764 laptop computer?
Detective Gaddis (01:58:21):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (01:58:24):
Did you ever at any point cause that computer to be reviewed for information that would help you lead to whether or not Mr. Davis wrote that book or helped write that book?
Detective Gaddis (01:58:33):
I did not.
Michael Sanft (01:58:36):
Okay. And just for the jury's edification, let's make sure we're clear. When you're reviewing an electronic device like that, you are looking for files, search history, things that would help you see whether or not Mr. Davis used that particular machine to help write the book, for instance, in this case?
Detective Gaddis (01:58:54):
In theory, yes, somebody would do that.
Michael Sanft (01:58:56):
Right. And you also took from the residence a Toshiba laptop computer?
Detective Gaddis (01:59:02):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:59:03):
Did you find any information that would help you know or learn whether or not Mr. Davis actually wrote Compton Street Legend or anything like that?
Detective Gaddis (01:59:12):
I did not write a search warrant to get into the digital item, so I've never reviewed anything from the electronics.
Michael Sanft (01:59:19):
Okay. So I just want to make sure I'm clear. That would've been Clifford Mogg's job, not your job?
Detective Gaddis (01:59:26):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (01:59:26):
Because at the time, he was the detective responsible for this investigation?
Detective Gaddis (01:59:30):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (01:59:30):
But I just want to make sure we're clear for the jury. The other items that were seized at that point that you were at least part of the seizure would've been a Toshiba Satellite laptop computer, so that's three computers, another laptop computer, HP G171 laptop computer, an HP touchscreen desktop computer, an iPad, another iPad, and a SKY Device tablet. Those were the things that were taken from the residence, right?
Detective Gaddis (02:00:04):
That sounds accurate, yes.
Michael Sanft (02:00:06):
And just stop me if you think I'm wrong, if you need to look at something, all right?
Detective Gaddis (02:00:08):
Okay.
Michael Sanft (02:00:09):
In addition to that, it looks like there was some drives that were taken as well, a Toshiba external drive, a USB drive, and an iPad with a broken screen and an iPhone in a black case?
Detective Gaddis (02:00:21):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (02:00:22):
Okay. And those were all the fruits of your search of Mr. Davis's residence when you went there?
Detective Gaddis (02:00:28):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (02:00:36):
And once again, whatever was found inside of those objects would be something that would be Detective Mogg's responsibility to tell this jury, not you?
Detective Gaddis (02:00:45):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (02:01:04):
Detective Gaddis, I'm done with my cross-examination of you.
Detective Gaddis (02:01:08):
Okay.
Michael Sanft (02:01:09):
I appreciate your answers today.
Detective Gaddis (02:01:09):
Of course. Thank you.
Michael Sanft (02:01:09):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (02:01:19):
Thank you, Mr. Sanft. Mr. DiGiacomo, redraft.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:01:22):
Thank you. Detective Gaddis, Mr. Sanft said we're two separate agencies. That's accurate, correct?
Detective Gaddis (02:01:27):
Yes, sir.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:01:31):
Let me ask you this. Do you work very closely with the DA's office?
Detective Gaddis (02:01:34):
Yes, sir. I do.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:01:37):
What is the soonest you've called the DA after you've shown up to a crime scene?
Detective Gaddis (02:01:43):
Oh, within an hour. Absolutely.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:01:45):
And are we, as the prosecutors, involved in the investigation from the beginning?
Detective Gaddis (02:01:52):
Yes, sir.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:01:56):
Were you aware that prior to the search warrant, or are you aware if prior to the search warrant, Mr. Palal and I were already involved in this investigation?
Detective Gaddis (02:02:05):
Yes, you were.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:02:06):
And were you aware of the determination or the decision that was made as it relates to Detective Mogg remaining the investigator on this case?
Detective Gaddis (02:02:24):
I don't know how those decisions were made.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:02:27):
Let me ask it this way. Are you aware that that decision was made the day he retires?
Detective Gaddis (02:02:32):
Yes. Yes.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:02:36):
Okay. And your role and Sergeant DeCarlo's role is if we needed a Metro police officer, you were supposed to assist?
Detective Gaddis (02:02:45):
Correct.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:02:47):
And do you have any active cases where the reports are not done?
Detective Gaddis (02:02:53):
Yes, sir.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:02:54):
And usually the report is done when all of the work is done?
Detective Gaddis (02:03:00):
Correct.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:03:00):
And so that's completed when you're done investigating?
Detective Gaddis (02:03:06):
Correct.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:03:08):
Okay. Mr. Sanft also mentioned something about the fact that your job is to find the facts. Do you remember him saying something like that?
Detective Gaddis (02:03:18):
Yes.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:03:19):
Is your job and our job any different than that we're here to uncover facts?
Detective Gaddis (02:03:25):
We have the same mission. We do it in different ways, but yes, the same mission.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:03:30):
And are you aware that my investigators oftentimes interview witnesses?
Detective Gaddis (02:03:38):
Yes.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:03:38):
And that's not something that's unusual?
Detective Gaddis (02:03:42):
No.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:03:43):
Is there anything that you feel was improper with the idea of Detective Mogg becoming my contract investigator on this particular case?
Michael Sanft (02:03:56):
Objection, Your Honor, as to opinion. I'm not quite clear what the relevance of that question is.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:04:01):
Well, his entire cross was, "Hey, this is really odd. This is really unusual. There's something wrong here by Detective Mogg becoming Mr. Mogg and continuing the investigation." So I'm asking her, in her experience, is there anything inappropriate about that?
Speaker 6 (02:04:17):
I don't know how her experience is relevant.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:04:21):
He opened the door by asking her those questions.
Speaker 6 (02:04:25):
Overruled.
Detective Gaddis (02:04:27):
I would say Detective Mogg would've been the best fit to do it because he had the most intelligence and knowledge of the investigation.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:04:34):
Thank you. I have nothing further.
Speaker 6 (02:04:36):
Anything further, Mr. Sanft?
Michael Sanft (02:04:37):
Yes, Your Honor. Since we walked through this door, so with regards to Detective Mogg in this case, he was the best fit for this investigation?
Detective Gaddis (02:04:44):
He had the most knowledge of it, yes.
Michael Sanft (02:04:46):
He had the most knowledge of it because he did not write an officer's report, fair?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:04:50):
Objection. Assumes a fact not in evidence.
Speaker 6 (02:04:52):
Can you approach?
(02:04:52)
All right. It's overruled. You may ask your question.
Michael Sanft (02:06:16):
And I just forgot the question, so let me back it up real quick here. So you're telling us though that he was the best for the job?
Detective Gaddis (02:06:23):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (02:06:24):
Okay. And that at the time of his retirement in 2023, he was the best for the job?
Detective Gaddis (02:06:30):
He had the most knowledge of it, yes.
Michael Sanft (02:06:32):
Yes. And he had the most knowledge of it because he was the primary detective on the case?
Detective Gaddis (02:06:36):
For the preceding several years, yes.
Michael Sanft (02:06:39):
Yes. And when he retired, he did not have an officer's report?
Detective Gaddis (02:06:43):
I don't know if he did or didn't.
Michael Sanft (02:06:45):
Well, just based upon your knowledge, you're saying you don't know?
Detective Gaddis (02:06:49):
Yeah. I've never actually read it. I don't know if he did.
Michael Sanft (02:06:53):
Okay. So you don't know if he had an officer's report?
Detective Gaddis (02:06:55):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (02:06:56):
And you say he was the best for the case, even though technically there were other detectives on your unit that could have taken over that case?
Detective Gaddis (02:07:06):
There are additional detectives, absolutely, yes.
Michael Sanft (02:07:09):
And are you saying that somehow Detective Mogg had something different compared to all the other detectives that could have taken over that case from the homicide division?
Detective Gaddis (02:07:17):
Well, I say that about Detective Mogg because he had those four or five years of experience already invested into the case, so for him to kind of finish it out and to see it through, to me, that made the most sense, in my opinion.
Michael Sanft (02:07:29):
But without capturing it, putting it down on an officer's report?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:07:33):
Objection. She just said she doesn't know if there is one.
Michael Sanft (02:07:37):
Let me ask you this question.
Speaker 6 (02:07:37):
Sustained.
Michael Sanft (02:07:40):
I'll withdraw the question. In terms of, as you sit here right now, there was a cold case unit, right?
Detective Gaddis (02:07:47):
Yes, we do. We have a cold case.
Michael Sanft (02:07:49):
The cold case unit would investigate crimes that occurred, like, say for instance, this case, 30 years ago?
Detective Gaddis (02:07:55):
Yes, I do.
Michael Sanft (02:07:56):
And they could have very easily taken this file as well, right?
Detective Gaddis (02:08:01):
From my understanding, when Detective Mogg obtained this case, we did not have a cold case unit in our section at that time. That didn't come into play until maybe 2020 that we were able to fulfill a cold case detectives.
Michael Sanft (02:08:16):
Okay. And so in terms of the way you're describing it, are you saying that Detective Mogg was operating a cold case?
Detective Gaddis (02:08:23):
No. He was on an active squad for the entirety of his time in the homicide section, but when he received this case from the preceding detectives, we didn't have a cold case unit for them to have investigated it. So basically any of the cold cases came down to the next person in line, more or less, and that happened to be Detective Mogg.
Michael Sanft (02:08:43):
All right. And in terms of the Detective Mogg situation, are you telling us though that he was hired by Metro as an investigator doing cold cases?
Detective Gaddis (02:08:54):
No, he was a detective with Metro, employed as a commissioned officer. He wasn't hired by Metro separately to do cold cases.
Michael Sanft (02:09:04):
I apologize for that. Let me just back up here. So are you aware of an officer, a retired officer by the name of Dean O'Kelly?
Detective Gaddis (02:09:11):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (02:09:12):
And he at some point worked on cold cases?
Detective Gaddis (02:09:15):
Yes, he did.
Michael Sanft (02:09:15):
And he worked on cold cases after he retired?
Detective Gaddis (02:09:19):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (02:09:20):
And prior to that, he was actually a homicide detective?
Detective Gaddis (02:09:23):
Yes, sir.
Michael Sanft (02:09:23):
And I apologize, maybe I wasn't clear on my question, but are you telling us that that's what Detective Mogg did in this case, that after he retired, he became a investigator just like Dean O'Kelly on cold cases?
Detective Gaddis (02:09:36):
Detective Mogg did not do that with Metro.
Michael Sanft (02:09:42):
And once again, as you're sitting here right now, you don't know of any officer's report up until the time he retires?
Detective Gaddis (02:09:47):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (02:09:48):
Are you aware of any other reports that he wrote after he retired in this case?
Detective Gaddis (02:09:53):
No, sir.
Michael Sanft (02:09:55):
And once again, any reports at all that would be put in the file to help the next detective with the investigation, anything like that?
Detective Gaddis (02:10:04):
I'm not aware of them.
Michael Sanft (02:10:05):
I have no further questions. Thank you.
Speaker 6 (02:10:07):
Anything further, Mr. DiGiacomo?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:10:09):
No.
Speaker 6 (02:10:10):
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, any questions for this witness? Seeing no hands, thank you, Detective Gaddis. You're free to go.
Detective Gaddis (02:10:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (02:10:20):
Does it make sense to break for lunch at this time?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:10:21):
We have one short witness, but maybe we could do a restroom break and then break for lunch.
Speaker 6 (02:10:28):
Does anyone in the jury have to use the restroom? Yes? Okay. All right. So we will take a break. During the recess, you're admonished not to talk or converse amongst yourselves or with anyone else on any subject connected to the trial, or rewatch or listen to any recording or commentary on the trial of any person connected with this case by any medium of information, including without limitation newspaper, television, internet, and radio, or formally express any opinion on any subject connected with the trial until the case is submitted to you. I'll have you guys back here at 11:40. Please rise for the jury.
(02:10:53)
For the record, the jury has exited the room. We'll be in recess. Back on record in C377407. Over the break, one of our jurors let Marshal Spies know that... It was juror five, Sydney Stratton, let the marshal know that she knows Mr. Scott, who was the CSA who testified. I don't know any more information about that. I was just going to have her come out and ask her some questions about that relationship, see if it would affect her ability to be fair and impartial. And then if you guys have any questions about it, I'll give you that opportunity as well.
Michael Sanft (02:12:01):
Yes, Your Honor.
Speaker 6 (02:12:02):
Okay. Can we get Ms. Stratton in, Randy?
Randy (02:12:04):
[inaudible 02:12:11].
Speaker 6 (02:15:41):
Okay. For the record, Ms. Stratton has exited the room. You may be seated. Anything else we need to discuss on that issue?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:15:47):
Not from the state.
Michael Sanft (02:15:47):
No, Your Honor.
Speaker 6 (02:15:48):
Anything we need to discuss outside the presence?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:15:51):
Not from the state.
Michael Sanft (02:15:51):
No, Your Honor.
Speaker 6 (02:15:52):
All right. We'll get the jurors lined up. And who is the witness that we're going to do next?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:15:57):
Mark Hatten.
Speaker 6 (02:15:58):
Mark Hatten?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:16:01):
Yeah, he's a firearms person.
Speaker 6 (02:16:16):
Okay.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:16:16):
So he should be short.
Speaker 6 (02:16:16):
All right. Then as soon as we get the jury in, we'll proceed with that one short witness and then we'll take our lunch break. You had said there were six witnesses you wanted to begin on and we've done five?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:16:30):
And then one in the afternoon.
Speaker 6 (02:16:30):
So the sixth is in the afternoon?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:16:30):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (02:16:30):
Understood. Okay.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:16:30):
We believe we should take most, if not all of the afternoons.
Speaker 6 (02:16:36):
Okay. No worries.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:16:36):
[inaudible 02:16:40]
Randy (02:16:36):
Stand up for the jury.
Speaker 6 (02:16:36):
Do the parties stipulate to the evidence of the jury?
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:16:36):
Yes, Your Honor.
Michael Sanft (02:16:36):
Yes, Your Honor.
Speaker 6 (02:17:47):
Okay. You may be seated. All right. State, you may call your next witness.
Mr. DiGiacomo (02:17:48):
Okay, Your Honor. State calls Mark Hatten.
Speaker 7 (02:18:12):
Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give in this action shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mark Hatten (02:18:18):
I do.
Speaker 7 (02:18:18):
You may have a seat.
Mark Hatten (02:18:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 7 (02:18:21):
Sir, if you'd please state your full name and then spell it for the record.
Mark Hatten (02:18:24):
Mark Hatten, M-A-R-K H-A-T-T-E-N.
Speaker 6 (02:18:28):
Thank you, sir. Whenever you're ready, Mr. Palal.
Mr. Palal (02:18:30):
Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Hatten, how are you employed?
Mark Hatten (02:18:33):
I'm currently a police officer with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. I was hired in 2007. I also worked as a NIBIN technician within the firearms unit of the forensic laboratory at the Metro Forensic Lab for seven years, from 2018 till 2025.
Mr. Palal (02:18:54):
Can you tell us what NIBIN is?
Mark Hatten (02:18:56):
Yes. NIBIN stands for the National Integrated Ballistic Information Network. It's a program that's overseen by the federal agency, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, otherwise known as the ATF. And this is a technology that contains hardware and software that takes high resolution 2D and 3D images of a cartridge that has been fired out of the firearm. It looks specifically at the headstamp area, and I also brought a model with me of a cartridge if the court will allow me to use this. And I could also pass this around to the jury so you can get a closer look to see exactly and understand what NIBIN is looking at.
Mr. Palal (02:19:42):
Mr. Hatten, you're getting a little ahead of me, but let's go. I was going to ask you, what is a cartridge case?
Mark Hatten (02:19:50):
A cartridge case, it's... What this is called is a cartridge. And once it's fired, the bullet gets projected out of the barrel and the cartridge case gets ejected from the firearm.
Mr. Hutton (02:20:00):
The barrel and the cartridge case gets ejected from the firearm and basically contains all the components of a cartridge, including the bullet, the cartridge case. Can I use them?
Binu Palal (02:20:12):
Yes. And so it appears you brought a demonstrative. Your Honor, may the witness use the demonstrative for the purposes of explaining it to the jury?
Judge Carli Kierny (02:20:17):
Is it the tube? Yeah. Okay. Yes, you may.
Mr. Hutton (02:20:20):
Thank you. Yeah. So during the firing process, when somebody pulls a trigger, this bullet will project out of the barrel. And this is the cartridge case. This is the headstamp area. It can be stamped with the manufacturer of the ammunition as well as the caliber. And this is what NIBIN looks at, specifically the primer area, which contains a small explosive that ignites the gunpowder within the cartridge case.
Binu Palal (02:20:55):
And then on the back of the cartridge, or the cartridge case, you had mentioned that the strike that causes the explosion to expunge the bullet. Is that strike unique or something that you look at in determining whether or not a cartridge has been fired from the same gun?
Mr. Hutton (02:21:16):
Yes. It's unique because during the manufacturing process of the firearm, it has tooling marks and it's hardened steel. This metal is soft. So this comes out at very high velocity. So when that slams into the firearm, it imparts its unique markings from that tooling process directly onto the cartridge case.
Binu Palal (02:21:40):
Now I'm going to direct your attention to case number 960907-2063. Were you asked to do some work on that case?
Mr. Hutton (02:21:50):
Yes, I was.
Binu Palal (02:21:52):
And is it fair to say that, and the jury's already heard this and they've been received in evidence, that seven cartridge cases with a head stamp of one 40 S&W were recovered from that scene?
Mr. Hutton (02:22:05):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (02:22:06):
And then initially when this case first occurred in 1996, they were run through the database that existed in 1996. Is that fair to say?
Mr. Hutton (02:22:18):
Not in 1996. It was in 2003, because NIBIN was not created. It was a program called Drugfire and NIBIN actually was implemented in 1997, but of course it takes time to build up the database. So it really wasn't rarely... the database wasn't built up until about the early 2000s. So that's when they actually initially entered this cartridge case into the NIBIN system.
Binu Palal (02:22:44):
So in 1996, it was Drugfire and then in 2003 it was reentered into NIBIN. Is that fair to say?
Mr. Hutton (02:22:53):
I don't have any knowledge if this was entered into Drugfire.
Binu Palal (02:22:56):
So we'll focus on 2003, the NIBIN entry. Did the cartridges used in this particular cartridge cases collected in this case match any other cartridge cases that were entered into NIBIN back in 2003?
Mr. Hutton (02:23:13):
They did not.
Binu Palal (02:23:15):
Did they match any other firearm that was recovered by 2003?
Mr. Hutton (02:23:20):
They did not.
Binu Palal (02:23:21):
Now in 2023, were you asked to re-enter these cartridge cases or reexamine them within the NIBIN system?
Mr. Hutton (02:23:31):
Yes, I was.
Binu Palal (02:23:33):
And that request I think was made by Mark Detjakob?
Mr. Hutton (02:23:37):
Yes, it was.
Binu Palal (02:23:38):
And had technology changed between 2003 and 2023?
Mr. Hutton (02:23:43):
Yes. So that 20-year period, yes, the cameras and the resolution has definitely improved over the 20-year timeframe.
Binu Palal (02:23:50):
And is it also fair to say that probably in the intervening 20 years, more cartridge cases and more firearms have been entered into the NIBIN system?
Mr. Hutton (02:24:02):
Yes. It's the gold standard of that type of ballistics. So everybody uses it now. And yes, there's millions of images in the database.
Binu Palal (02:24:13):
And did you actually look into NIBIN to see whether or not this cartridge case matched any other cartridge case that was entered into NIBIN?
Mr. Hutton (02:24:29):
Yes, I entered it into NIBIN myself and we did a nationwide search and it looked throughout the entire country. And then the NIBIN results had no associations other to the original entry from 2003.
Binu Palal (02:24:44):
So what you learned from NIBIN is when you entered the cartridge in 2003, it matched the cartridge you entered in 2023?
Mr. Hutton (02:24:52):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (02:24:52):
But nationwide, it did not match any other cartridge case that had been previously entered into NIBIN?
Mr. Hutton (02:25:00):
No, it did not.
Binu Palal (02:25:03):
Pass.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:25:06):
Sorry, cross examination, Mr. Sanft?
Michael Sanft (02:25:09):
Sir, did you actually look at the actual cartridge casings themselves?
Mr. Hutton (02:25:16):
Yes. I looked all seven side by side and I streamed them and then grouped them into one grouping, which represents one firearm.
Michael Sanft (02:25:25):
All right. And as far as you recall or understand, that the cartridge casings were located at one scene, not multiple scenes?
Mr. Hutton (02:25:34):
I didn't look into the case notes. That's try to keep our distance. We don't do any investigative work at the lab, so we don't want to bias our mind to what was. So I did not review any of the crime scene photos, any of the diagrams. I do not know. All I know is I have seven cartridge cases. How do they group and which ones to enter?
Michael Sanft (02:25:57):
Okay. And so out of the seven, all of them look like they were fired from the same firearm?
Mr. Hutton (02:26:00):
Yes. They had similar visual characteristics and I entered one which I assigned as lab item one.
Michael Sanft (02:26:07):
I see. So no one of them was different, indicating maybe another gun was used. All of them were from the same gun?
Mr. Hutton (02:26:13):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (02:26:14):
No further questions. Thank you.
Mr. Hutton (02:26:15):
Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:26:15):
Anything further, State?
Binu Palal (02:26:15):
No, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:26:18):
Any questions from our jurors? Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Hatton. You are free to go.
Mr. Hutton (02:26:22):
Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:26:23):
Excuse me. That was our short witness before the lunch break?
Binu Palal (02:26:28):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:26:29):
Okay, sounds good. So at this time we are going to take our lunch break. During this recess, you are admonished not to talk or converse amongst yourselves or with anyone else on any subject connected to the trial, or watch or listen to any report of or commentary on the trial of any person connected with this case by any medium of information, including without limitation, use of a television, internet, radio or form or express any opinion on any subject connected to the trial until the case is submitted to you. I'll have you guys back here at 1:00 PM for further testimony. Please rise for the jury. For the record, the jury has exited the room. Anything we need to address outside the presence?
Binu Palal (02:27:26):
Yes, Your Honor. So we're going to have Robert Ladd testify whenever we come back at.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:27:31):
Okay, be seated.
Binu Palal (02:27:34):
And there was this outstanding issue during our gang motion about the term 'shot caller.' Now, in the interim, we found that Mr. Davis refers to himself as the shot caller in the book. I don't know that that was pointed out. I had not realized that at the time of that motion, so I certainly failed to point that out. But at this point, the state's going to be asking that we allow Mr. Ladd to use that term. When I pretrialed him last night, I told him he is not allowed to use it unless the court gives a go ahead, so he's aware of that prohibition, but I think-
Judge Carli Kierny (02:28:12):
Was the idea that he was going to be the one to lay the foundation, that allegedly QPD was the shot caller.
Binu Palal (02:28:17):
Yes.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:28:17):
So we can use that term and attempt to lay the foundation, and then I guess we can just, at some point, you can approach and say, has that been conclusively established or something.
Binu Palal (02:28:26):
Okay. I just want to know the mechanism. So I'm not going to have him say it at all, and then I will try and lay the general gang foundation and then I'll lay the foundation for Mr. Davis's role within the gang. And at that point, I'll probably just ask to approach out of an abundance of caution and then see if the foundation still holds.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:28:44):
Does that work for you, Mr. Sanft?
Michael Sanft (02:28:48):
It does, Your Honor. I did have one for the housekeeping matter for the shot caller issue.
Binu Palal (02:28:51):
Yes.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:28:51):
Okay.
Michael Sanft (02:28:53):
The other issue is that we're asking the court to see if we could just exclude print on the record or publishing to everybody the addresses of my client, in terms of where his family still lives today in Compton. So if we're going to talk about a location that would just use maybe the street name, something like that to differentiate between the two.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:29:13):
I think that's appropriate for not to give the exact address.
Binu Palal (02:29:18):
So can we-
Judge Carli Kierny (02:29:18):
You can say like a 3600 block maybe.
Binu Palal (02:29:24):
I think it's a little complicated because there's a 1405 and a four... There's two houses on the same block. And so I think if Mr. Sanft object to us just saying that on the search warrants it's listed as Mr. Davis's house without giving the actual address or Mr. Anderson's or Ms. Anderson's house without giving the actual address, I'm happy to do that. I'm not trying to cause any problems. It's just that I don't want the vaguery used against us.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:29:53):
Sure. Would that compromise work for your purposes?
Michael Sanft (02:29:57):
Yes, Your Honor, because I think that's all we're asking. Is if we're just referring to who the house is, that's fine.
Speaker 9 (02:29:59):
The Exhibits themselves that will be admitted list the actual address, but we won't display those portions of the exhibits publicly, if that helps.
Michael Sanft (02:30:15):
Yes, Your honor. Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:30:16):
Sounds good. Okay. Anything else on that thing, Mr. Sanchez?
Michael Sanft (02:30:20):
No, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:30:21):
Okay. Anything else we need to address in general?
Michael Sanft (02:30:25):
No.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:30:25):
Hearing nothing, we'll be in recess. Thanks guys.
Binu Palal (02:30:27):
When are we coming back, Your Honor?
Judge Carli Kierny (02:30:27):
One o'clock. We're on record in State versus Davis, C377407. Anything that we need to address outside the presence of the jurors?
Binu Palal (02:30:40):
Not from the state.
Michael Sanft (02:30:40):
No, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:30:40):
Okay. And we have Mr. Ladd? Yes. Ready to go?
Michael Sanft (02:30:42):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:30:43):
Okay. There was a delay for him. Perfect. All right. We'll get the jurors lined up and we'll bring them. They are lined up? Okay, perfect. And just so I'm aware, one o'clock tomorrow is the plan?
Binu Palal (02:30:56):
Yes. One o'clock tomorrow. I think this is our last witness for today. I don't know how long it's going to take, but [inaudible 02:31:04] today.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:31:06):
So once I have them recess after this witness, we'll tell them to come back at 1:00 PM tomorrow.
Michael Sanft (02:31:12):
Correct.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:31:12):
Okay, perfect. Sounds good.
Speaker 8 (02:31:14):
And are we still starting in on Thursday?
Judge Carli Kierny (02:31:18):
That's the idea. If you guys are ready at that time. So you guys can talk about it and let me know.
Michael Sanft (02:31:24):
Yes, ma'am.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:31:25):
Okay, perfect.
Speaker 10 (02:31:25):
Stand for the jury.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:32:53):
Do the parties stipulate to the presence of the jury?
Attorneys (02:32:57):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:32:57):
Okay. You may all be seated. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you like the lunch. We are still in the state's case in chief. Mr. Palal, you're standing up, so I assume you're calling your next witness.
Attorneys (02:33:09):
Yes, Your Honor. State calls Robert Ladd.
Speaker 11 (02:33:39):
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this section shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Robert Ladd (02:33:49):
I do.
Speaker 11 (02:33:49):
You may be seated. May I please have you state and spell your first and last name for the record?
Robert Ladd (02:33:52):
Robert Ladd, R-O-B-E-R-T L-A-D-D.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:33:59):
Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Palal.
Binu Palal (02:33:59):
Thank you, Your Honor. Good afternoon, Mr. Ladd.
Robert Ladd (02:34:01):
How you doing, sir?
Binu Palal (02:34:03):
Sir, can you tell us a little bit about your employment?
Robert Ladd (02:34:07):
Yes, I'm retired now, but I was a police officer for 32 years.
Binu Palal (02:34:11):
Okay. Where did you start your career?
Robert Ladd (02:34:13):
I started in 1983 when I was hired by the City of Compton.
Binu Palal (02:34:17):
And what was your initial position with the City of Compton?
Robert Ladd (02:34:20):
A patrol officer.
Binu Palal (02:34:22):
And then did you change positions at some point?
Robert Ladd (02:34:26):
Yes, when I was a patrol officer for several years, and that really was my beginning introduction into the world of the Crips and Bloods because most of the radio calls that we got in Compton revolved around gang activity. So I got to learn their way they dressed, their territories, how to read graffiti. And then in 1988, I was promoted to the gang unit.
Binu Palal (02:34:53):
And for our edification, how big is Compton?
Robert Ladd (02:34:56):
Compton's a 10 square mile city. It had a population of 100,000 people, and we had 55 active gangs in this little 10 square mile city.
Binu Palal (02:35:07):
And is it fair to say that most of the gangs were affiliated either with the Crips or Blood or Mob and various subsets of those types of groups?
Robert Ladd (02:35:20):
Yes. It was basically Crips, Pirus, and Hispanic gangs.
Binu Palal (02:35:22):
Okay.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:35:23):
Mr. Palal, you've reminded me. This may be a good time to read the Tobaras instruction.
Binu Palal (02:35:28):
Right.
Judge Carli Kierny (02:35:29):
Ladies and gentlemen, you are going to hear testimony regarding drug trafficking, conspiracy, federal convictions, as well as gang affiliation. These are not offered to show the defendant's propensity to commit crime or any other improper purpose, and you may not consider it for those purposes. It is only offered to establish the credibility of his prior statements made by defendant, motive, and identity. You may proceed, Mr. Palal.
Binu Palal (02:35:54):
Thank you, Your Honor. All right. And then tell us a little bit about your career in terms of, you said in 1983, you became a patrol officer and you were patrolling Compton, which had you responding to a lot of gang-related calls. Is that fair to say?
Robert Ladd (02:36:11):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (02:36:13):
And then you ultimately go to the gang unit, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (02:36:16):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:36:18):
And were you assigned a partner?
Robert Ladd (02:36:19):
Yes, my partner was Tim Brennan.
Binu Palal (02:36:21):
And then who was the lieutenant in charge of the gang unit at that time?
Robert Ladd (02:36:23):
Lieutenant Reggie Wright Sr.
Binu Palal (02:36:29):
During your time as a gang detective, did you also respond to a lot of gang activity in Compton? Yes.
Robert Ladd (02:36:36):
When I got into the gang unit in 1988, Compton was a very violent city. We were averaging 70 to 80 homicides a year and hundreds and hundreds of shootings. So my responsibilities now were to investigate all gang related crimes, gather intelligence and photograph and identify gang members. And I also went out on a daily basis and tried to contact gang members and talk to them when I arrested them. And also I tried to talk to them out in the field so I could kind of build a rapport with these gang members out there.
Binu Palal (02:37:13):
Okay. So I mean, you'll have to forgive me, but when I think of a officer or detective rolling through Compton and trying to start up a conversation with a gang member, it seems weird to me that the gang member would want to interact with you at all. How did you develop that rapport?
Robert Ladd (02:37:30):
Well, it doesn't happen overnight. It takes several years. You just got to treat them fair and you have to talk to them like you'd want to be talked to. And we didn't sweat them on the small stuff. We let patrol kind of do that. For instance, if they were out there just drinking some beer or smoking some marijuana or whatever, we'd come up and we'd talk to them and say, "Man, we're not going to sweat you on that stuff." And so over time they say, "All right, this guy's pretty cool. We'll talk to him."
Binu Palal (02:38:00):
And then your partner, Tim Brennan, he ultimately was given a nickname Blondie, is that right?
Robert Ladd (02:38:08):
Yes. DJ Quick wrote an underground song about it and it was called Blondie. So everybody in Compton knew my partner as Blondie. He kind of became famous over it.
Binu Palal (02:38:22):
Can you tell me a little bit about any type of gang training that you've given, as somebody who has dealt with Bloods and Crips in Compton specifically?
Robert Ladd (02:38:34):
Yes. It was from 2001 to about 2010 that my partner, Tim and I, we taught at many national seminars right here in Vegas and in California also. And this is where thousands of police officers come from all over the country, as well as around the world, to learn about the Crips and Bloods. And so we taught them about that.
Binu Palal (02:38:59):
You had mentioned that in a city as small as 100,000 people, you would have somewhere between 50 to 60 or more homicides a year, and then additional hundreds of shootings. Can you tell us a little bit about that, about the volume of these types of cases? Were they mostly gang related shootings and homicides?
Robert Ladd (02:39:22):
Most of them were, yes. And in 1993, I was promoted to gang homicide detective and started handling all the gang homicides too. I did this till the year 2000, and so I spent 12 straight years in the gang unit. And during that time, I handled hundreds of homicide cases and thousands of shooting. And I actually talked to thousands of gang members and I got to know really the way they talk, the way they think, the way they act, basically their overall mentality about gang life in general.
Binu Palal (02:39:58):
I want to talk to you a little bit about some of the difficulties associated with investigating gang cases. As somebody who did hundreds of investigations and homicides and thousands of shootings, did gang cases in particular present investigatory problems?
Robert Ladd (02:40:17):
Absolutely. Gang cases, they're the hardest to solve, especially in Compton, because there's a code out in the street where you're not supposed to talk to the police, you're not supposed to go to court or you get labeled a snitch. And the other problems that we have is that the good citizens that actually see what happened and want to come forward, they're afraid to, they get intimidated by these gangsters. And so they're really hard. We really don't have any witnesses, so we kind of rely on a lot of informants to get our information out there in the streets.
Binu Palal (02:40:54):
And then you mentioned relying on informants, but is it fair to say that if a case needs to be prosecuted or brought to court, somebody can't remain a confidential, reliable informant. They actually have to reveal who they are.
Robert Ladd (02:41:10):
That's true.
Binu Palal (02:41:11):
And as part of your investigating homicides and shootings, was that a problem to get people to come forward and testify as opposed to giving you information on background?
Robert Ladd (02:41:22):
Yes. It's very difficult because when they come to court, if you can get them to come to court, they don't want to get involved. They don't want to say anything, so they're not cooperating.
Binu Palal (02:41:34):
And you said being labeled a snitch was something that was frowned upon. In your training and experience, were there any other types of consequences for people who are labeled snitches in Compton, California in gang life?
Robert Ladd (02:41:50):
Absolutely. These guys take the code very seriously, and if you get labeled a snitch, it's probably the worst thing that can happen to you as a gang member. You're probably going to have to leave the state if you don't want to get severely beaten down all the way up to getting murdered. So they take it very seriously.
Binu Palal (02:42:11):
Now I'm going to ask you now about a gang in particular. I'm going to ask you about the South Side Compton Crips. During your time in Compton, California, were you familiar with the South Side Compton Crips?
Robert Ladd (02:42:26):
Yes, sir.
Binu Palal (02:42:27):
And can you tell us a little bit about the South Side Compton Crips?
Robert Ladd (02:42:31):
Yes. The South Side Crips, they're located in the southeast portion of our city and their area, they're one of our larger gangs. It's probably a half miles in every direction. There was an excess of a hundred documented active gang members at the time, and they identified themselves by wearing the color blue. So when you contacted a South Side Crip member, he's going to have something blue on... Blue shoestrings, a blue rag, anything blue identifies him with being a Crip gang member. And also the South Side Crip members adopted the Seattle Mariners baseball cap. It's a blue cap. It had an S on it. And to them, the S stood for South Side Crips.
Binu Palal (02:43:23):
Now I want to direct your attention to specifically the mid '90s, 1995, 1996. Were you familiar with somebody by the name of Duane Davis?
Robert Ladd (02:43:35):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:43:37):
Was he somebody that was a high ranking person in that gang or a low ranking person in that gang?
Robert Ladd (02:43:44):
Well, as high as you can get, yeah.
Binu Palal (02:43:48):
Now, what are the different levels of gangsters in South Side or just general gangs? Are there different levels?
Robert Ladd (02:44:02):
Yes. There's definitely a hierarchy within the black gangs in Compton. There's really three phases that these guys go through. The first phase is the BG or Baby Gangster phase, and this is the time when they're just joining a gang. And usually, most of the time, not all the time, they get jumped in. And by getting jumped in, you have to show how tough you are. So it probably lasts about a minute, maybe two minutes where five, six, seven gang members are going to try to beat this guy up and he's got to fight with them to show how tough he is. And if he passes, he gets to join the gang. And these are the ages between 12, 13 to 15 and 16. And this is the beginning stages. So they're out there doing low level crime, such as graffiti, selling drugs for the older gang members and being lookouts.
Binu Palal (02:45:06):
And then is there a level above that?
Robert Ladd (02:45:06):
Yeah. The next level, we call the gangster phase, and that's from the ages from 15 to 16 to about 25 or 26. Now, this is a stage where these guys do the most violence. They're the ones out there that are committing the drive-by shootings and murders and robberies and carjacking. What they're trying to do is they're trying to earn their stripes for the gang so they can get kind of respect within the gang. So this is the most violent time for these gangsters.
Binu Palal (02:45:37):
And then is there another level in the hierarchy?
Robert Ladd (02:45:41):
Yes. The last level is ages 25 to 26 on up. And these are the guys that, a lot of them went to prison during their gangster phase and a lot of them are getting older now and they put in the work, they call earning their stripes within the gang. They're getting their respect. Now they're the older gangsters. And these guys become the leaders or shot callers of the gang. And they tell the younger officers what to do. And again, they take this very seriously.
(02:46:14)
If the OGs tell younger gangsters what to do, they do it without hesitation. If they don't, there's going to be severe consequences I've seen all the way from severe beat downs all the way up to murder.
Binu Palal (02:46:29):
Now in that hierarchy, so we have baby gangsters, just what was the middle one called? Just gangsters?
Robert Ladd (02:46:37):
Just gangsters.
Binu Palal (02:46:38):
Gangsters, and then OGs. Did you happen to know in the mid '90s where Duane Davis stood in that hierarchy?
Robert Ladd (02:46:47):
Yes, he was a shot caller.
Binu Palal (02:46:50):
Your Honor, may we approach?
Judge Carli Kierny (02:47:17):
You may.
Binu Palal (02:47:17):
All right. So you're saying that Mr. Davis was a shot caller within the South Side Compton crimes?
Robert Ladd (02:47:22):
Absolutely, yes.
Binu Palal (02:47:23):
And what does that mean?
Robert Ladd (02:47:26):
Well, he could tell the younger gangsters what to do. And if they don't listen, like I just said, there's going to be severe consequences. The younger gang members are supposed to do what they're told without hesitation.
Binu Palal (02:47:40):
Now, were you aware of whether or not Mr. Davis was a narcotics trafficker?
Robert Ladd (02:47:48):
Yes, he was definitely a high level narcotics dealer. Compton, we're a small city, and we didn't have the manpower or the resources to go after a major narcotics dealer like Mr. Davis. But during my time in the gang unit, we were approached by two different agencies, the FBI task force, really the DEA and FBI task force, and they would come to us because they wanted information on Mr. Davis's fellow gang members who he hung around with. And basically they would tell us that, hey, he's trafficking narcotics across the United States all the way to the East Coast.
Binu Palal (02:48:32):
Now, I want to talk a little bit more about Mr. Davis. Would you see him sometimes in Compton?
Robert Ladd (02:48:41):
Yes. Many, many times I've seen Mr. Davis.
Binu Palal (02:48:44):
And do you see him in the courtroom today?
Robert Ladd (02:48:46):
Yes, I do.
Binu Palal (02:48:47):
Can you please point him out and identify an article or clothing he's wearing?
Robert Ladd (02:48:51):
Yeah, he's a male black sitting at the end of the table wearing, it's either gray or black suit.
Binu Palal (02:48:57):
Your Honor, may the record reflect the identification of the defendant in this case?
Judge Carli Kierny (02:49:00):
It will.
Binu Palal (02:49:03):
All right. And would Mr. Davis dress in normal gangster attire like you were talking about before, or would he dress differently?
Robert Ladd (02:49:13):
No. In his later years, after he became the leader, whenever I'd see him, he'd be nicely dressed. Have the brim hat on, and he wouldn't have anything gangster-like on. He was always well-dressed.
Binu Palal (02:49:28):
I'm going to ask you now about somebody by the name of Orlando Anderson. Were you familiar with Mr. Anderson?
Robert Ladd (02:49:35):
Yes, I was very familiar with Mr. Anderson. Had many, many contacts with him.
Binu Palal (02:49:39):
Okay. And can you tell us how you first became aware of Mr. Anderson's involvement in gang activity, if such activity existed?
Robert Ladd (02:49:49):
Yes. I guess you could say I was there for his initiation into the gang. My partner, Tim Brennan and I, we were at a fast food restaurant getting something to eat. We're in the drive through. And this particular restaurant is right adjacent to South Side Crip territory. And there's an alley that runs just adjacent to it. So we got our food and we were driving out of the fast food restaurant, and all of a sudden we heard a barrage of shots. We can hear them hitting our car. We heard about five or six shots.
(02:50:28)
So after the shots stopped, we looked at each other, jumped out of the car, made sure we were all right. And we ran to where the shots were coming from. And witnesses were pointing down the street and I saw three male blacks running down towards a known gang hangout. So these guys ran in there.
(02:50:48)
We called the troops. We subsequently arrested Orlando Anderson and two other people. And during their interviews, they said that was part of their initiation. They didn't have to be jumped in if they tried to kill me and my partner. So they were automatically in the gang, and Orlando Anderson wasn't the shooter during this incident.
Binu Palal (02:51:11):
Was not?
Robert Ladd (02:51:13):
Was not. Yeah.
Binu Palal (02:51:17):
Well, did Orlando Anderson, to your knowledge, have any relation to Duane Davis?
Robert Ladd (02:51:24):
Yes. We found out that it was Orlando Anderson was Keefe's nephew. I'm sorry.
Binu Palal (02:51:33):
That's fine. And Keefe is what Mr. Davis went by?
Robert Ladd (02:51:38):
Yeah, Keefe D.
Binu Palal (02:51:38):
Yeah, Keefe D. Is that kind of how you're used to referring to Mr. Davis?
Robert Ladd (02:51:42):
Yeah, kind of known by their nicknames really.
Binu Palal (02:51:45):
Okay. And then were you also familiar with somebody by the name of Terrence "Bubble Up" Brown?
Robert Ladd (02:51:50):
Yes. Had many contacts with Mr. Brown. He was kind of a older gangster, call him a wobbler. I still considered him in the gangster phase, but he kind of was a little older too.
Binu Palal (02:52:06):
And I guess in the mid '90s, what phase or what level would you say Orlando Anderson was?
Robert Ladd (02:52:12):
Definitely gangster phase.
Binu Palal (02:52:14):
And then did he go by any nicknames that you're aware of, Orlando Anderson?
Robert Ladd (02:52:19):
Yes. Baby Lane.
Binu Palal (02:52:23):
And then were you familiar with somebody by the name of Deandre Smith?
Robert Ladd (02:52:28):
Yes. Deandre Smith, many contacts with him. Again, admitted to me he's a South Side Crip member. His nickname was Big Dre.
Binu Palal (02:52:37):
Why was he called Big Dre?
Robert Ladd (02:52:39):
Because he was a big man and he was like 6'4", probably 300 pounds. He was a big guy.
Binu Palal (02:52:49):
Were you also familiar with a gang called Mob Piru?
Robert Ladd (02:52:54):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:52:55):
Can you tell us about Mob Piru?
Robert Ladd (02:52:57):
Yes. They're a gang in the city of Compton and they're located in the northeast portion of our city. Their gang used to be called the Looters Park Piru. That was their territory. In about 1975 or '76, a group of kids over there wanted to start their own gang and have their own territory. So they started at Mob Piru, which stands for Members of Bloods.
(02:53:22)
Now their area is probably a quarter mile in each direction and there's probably 45 to 50 active gang members in this gang also. And they identified themselves by wearing the color red. And just like the Crips wore anything blue, the Pirus or Bloods wear everything red.
Binu Palal (02:53:44):
Now we're going to talk a little bit about the flare up between Mob Piru and South Side Crips. But even before any of the music or any of the particular 1990s issues that we're here to discuss, would it be fair to say that Mob Piru and South Side Crips were natural rivals?
Robert Ladd (02:54:07):
Yes. The Bloods and Crips never got along since they originated way back in the early '70s. They're kind of just natural enemy because one wears red and one wears blue.
Binu Palal (02:54:22):
Were you familiar with whether or not Mob Piru associated with any particular record label in the mid '90s?
Robert Ladd (02:54:30):
Yes. Death Row Records.
Binu Palal (02:54:32):
And do you know who ran Death Row Records at the time?
Robert Ladd (02:54:35):
Yes, Suge Knight.
Binu Palal (02:54:36):
And were you familiar with Suge Knight prior to his ascension in Death Row Records?
Robert Ladd (02:54:43):
Yeah, we had contact with him before, but not many because he really wasn't a gang member. He didn't really hang out, but he grew up in that neighborhood.
Binu Palal (02:54:53):
I'm going to ask you about some of the people that you would associate with the Mob Piru. Earlier, I think now it's last week, we met with somebody named...
Binu Palal (02:55:00):
Earlier, I think now it's last week, we met with somebody named James McDonald. Are you familiar with James McDonald?
Robert Ladd (02:55:07):
Yes, very.
Binu Palal (02:55:08):
Do you recall what his nickname was?
Robert Ladd (02:55:11):
Yes. Mob James.
Binu Palal (02:55:12):
Now, would you go to the McDonald house in Mob Piru territory?
Robert Ladd (02:55:20):
Yes. Mob James' house was kind of like the main hangout for the Mob Piru, Lueders Park Piru. He had two younger brothers, Buntry and Timmy Ru. So this was the main hangout for the Mob Piru's, and we would go there. If you wanted to find a Mob Piru, that's the first place you'd look. So we had many run-ins at this Mob James' house.
Binu Palal (02:55:48):
And were you familiar with somebody by the name of Trayvon Lane?
Robert Ladd (02:55:51):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:55:52):
And State's Exhibit 60. Do you recognize the person depicted in State's Exhibit 60?
Robert Ladd (02:56:04):
Yes, that's Trayvon Lane. His nickname's Tray and he's a member of the Mob Piru.
Binu Palal (02:56:10):
Are you familiar with somebody by the name of Roger Williams?
Robert Ladd (02:56:13):
Yes, I am. His nickname is Neckbone, and he's also a member of the Mob Piru.
Binu Palal (02:56:19):
Actually, I think I skipped something with Trayvon Lane. You had talked about the three levels of being a gangster. What level would you say Trayvon Lane was in the mid '90s?
Robert Ladd (02:56:28):
Gangster.
Binu Palal (02:56:29):
So the middle, most violent level?
Robert Ladd (02:56:31):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:56:31):
And then in the mid '90s, what level was Roger Williams?
Robert Ladd (02:56:36):
Definitely gangster.
Binu Palal (02:56:38):
In the mid '90s, what level was Mob James McDonald?
Robert Ladd (02:56:43):
I would consider him an OG.
Binu Palal (02:56:45):
And then you had mentioned Buntry. Is that Alton McDonald?
Robert Ladd (02:56:51):
Yes, it is.
Binu Palal (02:56:52):
And in the mid '90s, what level would you describe him?
Robert Ladd (02:56:54):
Gangster.
Binu Palal (02:56:57):
Now in that neighborhood, same neighborhood, there was a person that lived there or grew up there named Reggie Wright Jr. Is that fair to say?
Robert Ladd (02:57:08):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:57:09):
Were you familiar with Reggie Wright Jr.?
Robert Ladd (02:57:11):
Very, yes.
Binu Palal (02:57:12):
And when you say very, how are you familiar with Reggie Wright Jr.? Well,
Robert Ladd (02:57:15):
He used to work at the Compton Police Department. He was a jailer, and then he went to be a full-time police officer, I think in around 1988. He was only there for like five years, because he got injured and had to retire.
Binu Palal (02:57:32):
Now, I'm going to ask you something, I guess, culturally about the gang life. How important is one's reputation in the gang world?
Robert Ladd (02:57:43):
Very. These guys live for respect. That's how they live their lives.
Binu Palal (02:57:51):
And then if somebody felt as though they were disrespected, what would you expect them to do?
Robert Ladd (02:57:58):
They have to retaliate. If a gang member's disrespected, they have to retaliate or they're considered a punk out in the streets. And if you get considered a punk out in the streets, you kind of lose your respect and credibility.
Binu Palal (02:58:12):
And what's the consequence of losing your respect and credibility in the streets?
Robert Ladd (02:58:16):
Well, I mean, you're going to be nothing in that gang, really.
Binu Palal (02:58:23):
And then we talked about the hundreds of murders that you've investigated, and the thousands of shootings you've investigated. Was retaliation in your experience ever a motive for those shootings or murders?
Robert Ladd (02:58:39):
Yes. I've investigated like a thousand crimes, and I would say 90% of them are because of disrespect. And so when you get disrespected as a gang member, you can expect some sort of retaliation.
Binu Palal (02:58:59):
Now, you had heard gathering intelligence about this Lakewood Mall incident. Is that fair to say?
Robert Ladd (02:59:09):
Yes.
Binu Palal (02:59:10):
But you weren't there, were you?
Robert Ladd (02:59:10):
No.
Binu Palal (02:59:12):
And just so we're all clear, Lakewood Mall, is that in Compton?
Robert Ladd (02:59:17):
No, it's several miles out of Compton.
Binu Palal (02:59:21):
And so that wouldn't be something for you to investigate?
Robert Ladd (02:59:23):
No.
Binu Palal (02:59:25):
But as a gang expert and a gang investigator, what to you is the significance of somebody trying to rip off a gang member's chain?
Robert Ladd (02:59:40):
Well, it's definitely disrespect, especially the chain that they were trying to take at the Lakewood Mall. It was a highly prized medallion, and these guys wore it like a badge of honor. So them try to steal this chain and beat up this subject, it would be a major display of disrespect. So now this guy's got to go back to the Mob Piru and Death Row Records and tell them what happened so the next time they see each other, it's going to be on site. As soon as they see each other, some confrontation is going to happen.
Binu Palal (03:00:18):
And you had said that we're talking about the chain, we're talking about that Death Row chain, is that right?
Robert Ladd (03:00:23):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:00:24):
And you had mentioned that they were wearing it with great pride. By they, who are you talking about?
Robert Ladd (03:00:30):
The entourage of Suge Knight, that's Trayvon Lane. Well, back in '95, Suge Knight gave these out as Christmas presents to his entourage, like just Trayvon, Neckbone, Buntry. They gave one to Reggie Wright Jr. So not too many people had them at this time, so it was a prized possession to these guys.
Binu Palal (03:00:56):
Now I'm going to take you forward to September 7th of 1996. You become aware of a shooting that occurs out here in Las Vegas, September 7th, 1996, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:01:10):
Yes, sir.
Binu Palal (03:01:11):
How do you become aware of the shooting that occurred here on September 7th, 1996?
Robert Ladd (03:01:16):
Well, I was at home and I get a call from my boss who's Reggie Wright Sr., and he tells me that, "Hey, Suge Knight and Tupac were just shot. Tupac's in critical condition, and get ready because it's coming back to Compton." He told me that they thought the South Side Crisp were responsible for the shooting.
Binu Palal (03:01:40):
And so when he's telling you this, do you now have to have a response to this, or why is he telling you specifically to get ready?
Robert Ladd (03:01:51):
Because when you disrespect and shoot the biggest rap mogul on the planet and the biggest rap star on the planet, and he surrounds himself with the Mob Piru, then there's going to be some sort of retaliation. And all these guys were from Compton, so when they got back to Compton, we expected a war.
Binu Palal (03:02:13):
And was there a war?
Robert Ladd (03:02:15):
There definitely was a war.
Binu Palal (03:02:17):
Can you tell us about that? So in the immediate aftermath of the Tupac Shakur shooting, did you notice an uptick in violence in Compton?
Robert Ladd (03:02:30):
Yes. Two days after Tupac was shot was our first shooting. One of the OGs was at a store on Elandra Boulevard in Compton and he was shot in the back several times, and a 10-year-old little girl got caught in a crossfire, and she was hit and she was in critical condition. And the guy that was shot was a South Side Crips member. And again, he was a shot caller for the South Side Crips, his name was Darnell Brim.
Binu Palal (03:02:57):
Okay. And we've heard Darnell Brim's name before here, but was Darnell Brim a part of the same subgroup of the South Side Crips as Duane Davis?
Robert Ladd (03:03:11):
No, he was a South Side Crips gang member like they all were, but there was two factions of it. There was a group called the Burris Crew, which Mr. Davis ran, and then there was a Glencoe crew that Darnell Brim ran.
Binu Palal (03:03:27):
And is it fair to say that at some point there was a conflict between the two groups that caused the factionalization?
Robert Ladd (03:03:35):
Yes. They used to be one big happy family, but there was a disagreement over drugs or some drugs were stolen from one of the Burris' crew members, and that's when they split apart. They start fighting with each other, and they split apart into two different factions.
Binu Palal (03:03:52):
Now in your understanding of gang culture, would Mob Piru, if they're seeking retaliation, would they be discerning about which crew or which part of the South Side Compton Crips they were shooting at, or would it just be you find a South Side Crips and then you start shooting?
Robert Ladd (03:04:15):
Yeah, they don't care. When they go hunting for somebody, they don't care which faction he's from. If he's a South Side Crips member, they're going to go after him.
Binu Palal (03:04:26):
Now, certainly that wasn't the only shooting that occurred in the immediate aftermath of the Tupac shooting, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:04:33):
That's correct. We had three murders and 10 attempted murder drive-by shootings that happened within a 10-day period in Compton.
Binu Palal (03:04:44):
And were those shootings going back and forth related to Mob Piru and South Side Crips?
Robert Ladd (03:04:51):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:04:52):
So I mean, you had mentioned earlier there's 53 or 50 plus gangs in this 10 square mile radius, but during this particular heightened sense of violence, what was happening was the shooting back and forth between Mob Piru and South Side Crips.
Robert Ladd (03:05:10):
Yes, but basically what it told me as a gang investigator right after the first shooting of Darnell Brim, to me, there was no doubt in my mind that the South Side Crips were responsible, because the Mob Piru had to retaliate, and they had 54 other gangs to choose from, but they went right after the South Side Crips. So there's no doubt in mind who's responsible for shooting Tupac and Suge Knight.
Binu Palal (03:05:37):
Now, as a result of this in October, do you and your partner, Tim Brennan, put together a multi-house search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:05:53):
That is correct.
Binu Palal (03:05:54):
And what was the purpose of this search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:05:57):
Well, we had two purposes really. One, there was a war in the city of Compton, and innocent people were getting shot as well as gang members, and so we wanted to put a stop to that. So by hitting houses on both sides, both the Pirus and the Crips, we wanted to quell the violence and try to stop it. The other reason was we wanted to try to help Las Vegas PD with their investigation of the shooting of Tupac and Suge.
Binu Palal (03:06:27):
And when you said you wanted to help the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department in their investigation of who shot Tupac and Suge, can you elaborate more on how you believed this search warrant might help Metro in this investigation?
Robert Ladd (03:06:46):
Yes. The way we handle gang-related homicide is when we did these search warrants, we'd find a reason hopefully to arrest them. We'd find guns and narcotics in their house, and then we'd bring them down to the station so you would have all the players that were involved, that we heard about that was involved in the shooting of Tupac Shakur. So we rounded them all up, and hopefully Las Vegas PD would come down and try to interview them, try to get one of them to cop out or to try to put them in Las Vegas, whatever they want to do on their investigation of the murder, we rounded up all the people for them. So that's how we helped them.
Binu Palal (03:07:27):
So the search warrant served two purpose. You have an active war going on and you're trying to slow the violence in Compton, but you're also thinking, well, maybe we can get some of the folks who we think might be involved in the Tupac shooting to start talking as well.
Robert Ladd (03:07:43):
Correct.
Binu Palal (03:07:45):
And did Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department send detectives out here for that purpose or out there for that purpose?
Robert Ladd (03:07:52):
Yes, they sent two detectives.
Binu Palal (03:07:54):
Now with regards to the search warrant itself, were a number of firearms recovered as well?
Robert Ladd (03:08:00):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:08:01):
And was part of the goal that maybe not only just take the guns off the street for the Compton war, but was there a hope that maybe the firearm for the Tupac Shakur murder might be recovered as well?
Robert Ladd (03:08:14):
That's correct also.
Binu Palal (03:08:15):
It's fair to say that that did not happen?
Robert Ladd (03:08:18):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (03:08:19):
Your Honor, I'm actually going to approach with State's proposed Exhibit Number 161.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:08:23):
Okay.
Binu Palal (03:08:37):
I'm showing you what's proposed State's Exhibit Number 161.
Robert Ladd (03:08:41):
I got to get my glasses.
Binu Palal (03:08:43):
No problem. Bless you. Bless you. Bless you. That's all I got. Okay. Do you recognize what State's proposed Exhibit 161 is?
Robert Ladd (03:08:58):
Yes, it's a search warrant.
Binu Palal (03:09:00):
And can you open it up and look through it? Do you recognize the search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:09:04):
Yes, I do. It was a search warrant that we prepared or Tim wrote after the Tupac shooting.
Binu Palal (03:09:12):
And did you assist him in the investigation that led up to the search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:09:18):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:09:18):
And did you assist him in giving him the information in order to get the probable cause?
Robert Ladd (03:09:23):
Definitely, yes.
Binu Palal (03:09:24):
And then did you also assist in executing that search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:09:26):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:09:26):
State's going to move State's Proposed Exhibit 161 into evidence.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:09:26):
Any objection, Mr. Sanft?
Mr. Sanft (03:09:26):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:09:26):
So admitted.
Binu Palal (03:09:36):
Now, there's been some allegation that the Compton Police Department was only focused on the South Side Crips when it came to trying to stop this war and stop this violence. Is it fair to say that among the houses that were searched included a large number of Mob Piru houses along with South Side Crips houses?
Robert Ladd (03:09:59):
Yes, definitely. We hit many houses on both sides.
Binu Palal (03:10:03):
And is it fair to say that is a total of 38 residences that were looked into?
Robert Ladd (03:10:10):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:10:13):
And to include members of Mob Piru and South Side Compton Crips?
Robert Ladd (03:10:18):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:10:19):
Now. Permission to approach, Your Honor?
Judge Carli Kierny (03:10:25):
You may.
Binu Palal (03:10:28):
I'm going to show you what's been previously marked as State's Exhibits 162 and 163. Do you recognize what these are?
Robert Ladd (03:10:39):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:10:40):
What are they?
Robert Ladd (03:10:41):
These are evidence that we collected at the scene.
Binu Palal (03:10:47):
Okay. And without going into the addresses, is it fair to say that these were evidence that were collected from Duane Davis's house and Duane Davis' family's house?
Robert Ladd (03:10:57):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:10:57):
Okay. I'm going to move State's Exhibits 162 and 163 into evidence.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:11:02):
Any objection?
Mr. Sanft (03:11:03):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:11:03):
So admitted.
Binu Palal (03:11:18):
Okay. I'm going to first turn your attention to State's Exhibit 162.
Mr. Sanft (03:11:25):
Yeah, you just want me to avoid the address though, right? We have to avoid the address, so maybe take it off.
Mr. DiGiacomo (03:11:35):
Jessica, maybe take it off me while it comes up so we can avoid the address itself. What page do you want?
Binu Palal (03:11:50):
The fourth page, please. Actually, no, I'm sorry. Can you do the second page first?
Speaker 12 (03:12:05):
Ready?
Binu Palal (03:12:08):
Yes. Okay. So this is the first address we're going to talk about here. And again, we're not going to go into what the actual address is, but do you recognize the people that are listed that were located at the address?
Robert Ladd (03:12:29):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:12:31):
And fair to say they were members of Mr. Davis' family?
Robert Ladd (03:12:35):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:12:37):
Now I'm going to turn your attention to the next page. And on line number five, do you see what's listed there as the receipt?
Robert Ladd (03:12:56):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:12:57):
And line number five is One Hotel's receipt, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:13:00):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:13:01):
And then line number six is One Compton Municipal Court subpoena. Is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:13:05):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:13:22):
I'm going to show you State's Exhibit 163. If we can take it off us for a second.
Mr. Sanft (03:13:52):
Give me half a second here. Sorry, can we approach? I think you have to show it to him, Mr. Paul. I don't think we can put it up. Okay. This is what it says.
Binu Palal (03:14:11):
So I'm showing you page 3 of State's Exhibit 163. Can you tell us what this document actually is?
Robert Ladd (03:14:22):
Yeah, it's a receipt for property taken.
Binu Palal (03:14:25):
And then I'm going to... It actually mentions who is taking some of the property here, doesn't it?
Robert Ladd (03:14:31):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:14:32):
And who's that?
Robert Ladd (03:14:33):
Myself.
Binu Palal (03:14:33):
Okay. And then one is a letter from the Excalibur Casino, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:14:39):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:14:40):
And then the other is an envelope addressed to Orlando Anderson, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:14:44):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:14:45):
And then the third is miscellaneous bills addressed to Orlando Anderson as well. Is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:14:50):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:14:59):
And all of these three items were collected by you, is that fair to say?
Robert Ladd (03:15:03):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:15:07):
So from Mr. Davis' home, and well, we'll start with 163, we have from Mr. Anderson's home, we have a receipt from the Excalibur, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:15:21):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:15:23):
And is part of the reason why you're collecting that receipt is because it's relevant to the investigation as to who shot Mr. Shakur?
Robert Ladd (03:15:32):
Yes. We though it might be significant that it showed that Mr. Davis was in Las Vegas at the time of the shooting.
Binu Palal (03:15:38):
I guess in this one's Mr. Anderson, correct?
Robert Ladd (03:15:40):
Yeah.
Binu Palal (03:15:41):
And then from Mr. Davis' house, there's also a receipt, a hotel receipt that was collected. Is that fair?
Robert Ladd (03:15:53):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:16:15):
Yeah, I'm going to approach. I'm going to show you State's 160, and we're not going to talk about the addresses specifically, but the two addresses attributed to Mr. Anderson and Mr. Davis, one is at the top and then one is at the bottom with a red dot. Is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:16:34):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:16:34):
It's fair to say that they are very close to each other?
Robert Ladd (03:16:36):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:16:36):
I'm going to move 160 into evidence.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:16:36):
Any objection?
Mr. Sanft (03:16:36):
No objection, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:16:36):
So admitted.
Binu Palal (03:16:53):
So Mr. Anderson, was he one of the people that was caught up during the search warrant, this 38 house search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:17:01):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:17:03):
And was Mr. Davis around during the 38 house search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:17:09):
No, we couldn't locate him.
Binu Palal (03:17:10):
So you were able to locate Mr. Anderson, but Mr. Davis was not around?
Robert Ladd (03:17:15):
Correct.
Binu Palal (03:17:15):
And you don't know why or how that is?
Robert Ladd (03:17:17):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (03:17:19):
But with regards to Mr. Anderson, it's fair to say Mr. Anderson at that point is a person of interest at least in the shooting of Mr. Shakur?
Robert Ladd (03:17:28):
Definitely, yes.
Binu Palal (03:17:29):
And then at that point, do you make him available for questioning with Detective Becker from LVMPD?
Robert Ladd (03:17:37):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:17:39):
And does Mr. Becker make an attempt to question Mr. Anderson?
Robert Ladd (03:17:45):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:17:45):
And did any useful or relevant information come out during the course of that questioning?
Robert Ladd (03:17:53):
Not that I was aware of.
Binu Palal (03:17:57):
Now, let's fast-forward a little bit. You were aware that six months later, Christopher Wallace, also known as the Notorious B.I.G, also known as Biggie Smalls, he was killed in Los Angeles, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:18:12):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:18:12):
Now, was that in the Compton area?
Robert Ladd (03:18:16):
No.
Binu Palal (03:18:17):
And so were you responsible for the investigation of Christopher Wallace?
Robert Ladd (03:18:21):
No.
Binu Palal (03:18:23):
But did you end up assisting the LAPD in trying to execute search warrants in an attempt to gather information on the murder of Christopher Wallace?
Robert Ladd (03:18:34):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:18:35):
Why were you the person, or you and Mr. Brennan the person that LAPD would ask for assistance?
Robert Ladd (03:18:43):
Because we knew who all the players were, and we told them at the time that they had a little internal feud going with each other, and we were getting ready to do search warrants on them.
Binu Palal (03:18:55):
So you were getting ready to... They were having an internal feud. Is it fair to say that the 1997 search warrant served a dual purpose in a similar way that the 1996 search warrant served?
Robert Ladd (03:19:07):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:19:08):
So in 1996, you have a war between Mob Piru and South Side Crips, and you're also trying to see if you can get any information related to the Tupac Shakur murder. Is that fair?
Robert Ladd (03:19:18):
Correct, yes.
Binu Palal (03:19:19):
And then in 1997, you had mentioned that there was an internal feud that had gotten violent. Is it fair to say that the Burris Street Crew and the Glencoe Street crew on the South Side Compton Crips, that they had started engaging in their own violent feud?
Robert Ladd (03:19:38):
Yes, definitely.
Binu Palal (03:19:41):
And at that same time, there was some question as to whether or not members of the South Side Crips may be involved in the murder of Christopher Wallace?
Robert Ladd (03:19:49):
Correct.
Binu Palal (03:19:50):
And so were those two goals or those two functions part of the reason or the basis for executing search warrants?
Robert Ladd (03:19:59):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:20:01):
Now, I'm going to show you what's been previously admitted as State's Exhibit 136. Do you recognize State's Exhibit 136?
Robert Ladd (03:20:18):
Yes. This is the search warrant we did on-
Binu Palal (03:20:23):
And we're not going to talk about addresses by agreement, but it's a search you did on a different house from the houses that you did in 1996, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:20:34):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:20:35):
And this is a different residence that was associated with Mr. Davis, is that fair?
Robert Ladd (03:20:39):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:20:39):
Page 4 of 136. It's not actually 136, but it is... Give me a second.
(03:21:08)
The court's indulgence, Your Honor, we're just pulling that up.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:21:09):
Sure.
Mr. Sanft (03:21:09):
Jessica, you can pull it on me.
Binu Palal (03:21:25):
And Mr. DiGiacomo, do you mind zooming in a little bit? Yeah, if I can figure out how to make the Zoom work on this. That didn't work. The Zoom tool's not working. Mr. Ladd, we're going to do this the old-fashioned way. It's going to be up there, but I want to show you page 4 of 136. It's still up there on the screen as well. On page 4, we have another receipt of property taken, is that right?
Robert Ladd (03:22:00):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:22:00):
And on line four, what do we have?
Robert Ladd (03:22:08):
A money due bill for the Monte Carlo Casino.
Binu Palal (03:22:12):
Now, in relation to this search warrant as well as the other search warrant, really, you can only take property that would be related to the investigation, correct?
Robert Ladd (03:22:21):
Correct.
Binu Palal (03:22:22):
So I couldn't take just any random property just because I have a search warrant, can I?
Robert Ladd (03:22:27):
No.
Binu Palal (03:22:28):
You have to take things that are related to the actual search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:22:32):
Correct.
Binu Palal (03:22:34):
Now I am going to ask you, you said you had worked at Compton till about... Actually, let me rephrase.
(03:22:44)
How long did you work at the city of Compton for?
Robert Ladd (03:22:47):
From 1983 to 2001. I'm sorry, 2000.
Binu Palal (03:22:52):
Okay. Is it fair to say that at some point the Compton Police Department got swallowed up by the LA Sheriff's Office?
Robert Ladd (03:23:02):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:23:03):
And did you sign on to the LA Sheriff's Office after that?
Robert Ladd (03:23:09):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:23:09):
Do you recall approximately how many of the Compton police officers stayed with the LA Sheriff's Office? Oh, go ahead.
Robert Ladd (03:23:18):
Go ahead if you want.
Binu Palal (03:23:20):
I'm sorry. I don't want it to be like yesterday where we keep on interrupting each other. Do you recall how many of the Compton police officers were hired on by the LA Sheriff's Office when LA Sheriff's Office took over Compton Police Department?
Robert Ladd (03:23:35):
Yeah, I'm not sure the exact number. I think there was like 103 of us, and I think all but two were hired by the Sheriff's Department.
Binu Palal (03:23:50):
Now, you ultimately left the LA Sheriff's Office, is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:23:53):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:23:54):
And then where did you go to work after that?
Robert Ladd (03:23:56):
I laddered over to agency Garden Grove PD in Orange County.
Binu Palal (03:24:02):
Probably a little bit safer than the Compton Police Department?
Robert Ladd (03:24:06):
You could say that, yes. It was still a busy city, but wasn't nothing like Compton.
Binu Palal (03:24:11):
And then during that time period is when you started giving talks with Detective Brennan regarding your experience working blood in Crips gangs in Compton?
Robert Ladd (03:24:22):
Yeah.
Binu Palal (03:24:26):
Is it fair to say that Detective Brennan is no longer with us?
Robert Ladd (03:24:31):
Yes. He passed away of cancer several years ago.
Binu Palal (03:24:41):
Oh, yeah. Now I've forgotten about one of the murders or one of the shootings I wanted to talk to you about during the war that escalated immediately after the shooting of Tupac Shakur. So I'm going back a little bit, and I apologize for that.
Robert Ladd (03:24:59):
No problem.
Binu Palal (03:25:01):
One of the people that was shot was a man by the name of Bobby Finch. Is that correct?
Robert Ladd (03:25:06):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:25:07):
And Bobby Finch was actually killed on September 11th. Was Bobby Finch a gang member?
Robert Ladd (03:25:13):
No.
Binu Palal (03:25:15):
Was Corey Edwards a gang member?
Robert Ladd (03:25:16):
Yes.
Binu Palal (03:25:17):
And what gang did he belong to?
Robert Ladd (03:25:18):
South Side Crips.
Binu Palal (03:25:29):
And do Bobby Finch and Corey Edwards look alike?
Robert Ladd (03:25:32):
Yes, they do.
Binu Palal (03:25:35):
I'll pass the witness.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:25:38):
Does anyone need to use the restroom before we get into cross? Seeing no hands, Mr. Sanft. You're good?
Speaker 13 (03:25:46):
Restroom.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:25:47):
Restroom. Okay, perfect. All right. During this recess, you're admonished not to talk or converse amongst yourselves or with anyone else on any subject connected to the trial or read, watch, or listen to any report or commentary on the trial of any person connected with this case by any mean of information, including without limitation, newspaper, television, internet, radio, or form or express any opinion on any subject connected to this trial until the case is submitted to you. I'll have you guys back here at, let's say 2:15. Please rise for the jury.
(03:26:10)
For the record, the jury has exited the room. We'll be in recess.
(03:26:51)
Back on record in State versus Davis, C377407. Anything we need to address outside the presence before we bring the jury in?
Binu Palal (03:26:57):
Not from the state. No, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:26:59):
Okay. Let's bring him in. Not ready yet.
Binu Palal (03:27:07):
I guess we should stand since they're coming in.
Speaker 12 (03:27:08):
Stand for the jury.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:28:04):
Do the parties stipulate to the presence of the jury?
Mr. Sanft (03:28:06):
Yes, Your Honor.
Binu Palal (03:28:07):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (03:28:10):
You may be seated. All right, we're on cross. So whenever you're ready, Mr. Sanft, you may proceed.
Mr. Sanft (03:28:21):
Mr. Ladd, welcome to Las Vegas.
Robert Ladd (03:28:21):
Thank you.
Mr. Sanft (03:28:30):
Now, during your time in Compton, it seems like it was a pretty colorful time where you were there.
Robert Ladd (03:28:36):
Very active, yes.
Mr. Sanft (03:28:39):
There's a movie called, I think, End of Watch. Have you ever watched that movie?
Robert Ladd (03:28:43):
No.
Mr. Sanft (03:28:44):
Okay. Have you ever watched any movies at all from that time period? Like say, I don't know what there was out there, any of the LAPD movies during that time period, have you ever watched any of those?
Robert Ladd (03:28:58):
You have to be more specific.
Mr. Sanft (03:29:00):
I know. I know. I'm trying to figure out there's another one out there besides End of Watch. But you share basically your experience working as a Compton police officer to the time you started working as a detective for gangs in a book that you wrote?
Robert Ladd (03:29:17):
Yes.
Mr. Sanft (03:29:18):
And that book is called and entitled Once Upon a Time Compton, right?
Robert Ladd (03:29:22):
Yes.
Mr. Sanft (03:29:22):
Okay. Now you do write this book in addition to Timothy Brennan, your partner?
Robert Ladd (03:29:27):
Yes.
Mr. Sanft (03:29:28):
Now in the book, I've read the book, and when you guys are working together as a team, it's Tim and Bob, right, in the book. Tim and Bob, we did this. Tim and Bob, we did that, right?
Robert Ladd (03:29:42):
Yes.
Mr. Sanft (03:29:43):
Now the book itself, as you created the book, fair to say that that was a book that I would think that you would be proud of, the work that you put into the book?
Robert Ladd (03:29:54):
Yes.
Mr. Sanft (03:29:55):
And in terms of the book itself, you could sit here basically as you're talking with us and this jury today, that the book is accurate?
Michael Sanft (03:30:00):
... talking with us and this jury today, that the book is accurate in terms of what you recall during that time period, right?
Robert Ladd (03:30:05):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:30:07):
And you would have taken great pain to make sure that that book was accurate before it was published?
Robert Ladd (03:30:13):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:30:14):
Meaning for instance, if you read something in the book that wasn't accurate, and it wasn't published yet, you would make a note to either tell Tim or this other lady, I think her name is Lolita, that, "Hey, this isn't quite right. I don't remember that." And there would be some discussion, maybe changing or something, right?
Robert Ladd (03:30:32):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:30:32):
Okay. And in order for you to write the book, and I think you published this book in 2017?
Robert Ladd (03:30:39):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:30:39):
And you started working for Compton in what year?
Robert Ladd (03:30:44):
1983.
Michael Sanft (03:30:47):
And you start off in the book from 1983 on in terms of your experience working as a police officer in Compton, as well as Tim's experience working as a police officer in Compton, right?
Robert Ladd (03:30:55):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:30:57):
I would imagine you would've used notes and that kind of thing to help refresh your recollection and help remind you of certain events, certain cases, that kind of thing.
Robert Ladd (03:31:08):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:31:09):
Yeah. Because in the book, for instance, there's a lot of different people you run into, and there's a lot of different scenarios you run into as well, right?
Robert Ladd (03:31:16):
Yes. Most of it was based off our memories. But for the search warrant or whatever, we could go back to a search warrant and look at that to refresh our memories. Most of the stories are just from my memory.
Michael Sanft (03:31:31):
Yeah. And fair to say, of course, it's also Tim's memory as well. So something that you would remember, he would remember, and vice versa, and you'd go, "Oh yeah, I remember this now." And you would say, "Oh yeah, I remember that now," right?
Robert Ladd (03:31:42):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:31:42):
So part of the book, in essence, really is a ... It's teamwork between you and Tim and Lolita writing the book for you.
Robert Ladd (03:31:51):
It's a collaboration.
Michael Sanft (03:31:52):
Collaboration. Okay. Now, did you write any of the book yourself?
Robert Ladd (03:32:00):
Basically we got Lolita Files to write the book, and we told the story to her.
Michael Sanft (03:32:06):
Right.
Robert Ladd (03:32:07):
She actually wrote it, but it's our story.
Michael Sanft (03:32:10):
Right. And Lolita, meaning that this was an experienced writer that you recall, right, before she wrote the book?
Robert Ladd (03:32:18):
Absolutely.
Michael Sanft (03:32:19):
And when she wrote the book ... Can you tell us a little bit about Lolita, who she was as a writer?
Robert Ladd (03:32:26):
Yeah, she had several books that were published prior to that, and she was very up on the hip hop scene. So when we got together, we kind of just clicked and we collaborated to write the book.
Michael Sanft (03:32:42):
And in terms of her background and so forth, did she go to school for that?
Robert Ladd (03:32:46):
I'm not sure.
Michael Sanft (03:32:48):
All right. And was she working as a journalist or a writer prior to you meeting her to write this book?
Robert Ladd (03:32:53):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:32:54):
Now, in addition to that, throughout the course of the book, you do put pictures in here, and pictures of you with darker hair and less of a goatee and more of a ... Looks like just actually one without a picture of no facial expression whatsoever. It's a picture of you as a young police officer?
Robert Ladd (03:33:17):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:33:18):
Now, the purpose for these pictures in your book is really to help establish some of the things that were happening during that time period, so the reader could see visually what was going on, right?
Robert Ladd (03:33:28):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:33:29):
Now, in addition to that in the book, you had put as well. And the picture that I was looking at is this picture right here. Do you recall this picture?
Robert Ladd (03:33:42):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:33:42):
Yeah. And once again, it's just to show your experience while you were being a police officer in Compton, right?
Robert Ladd (03:33:50):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:33:51):
Now, in addition to that though, you do put in the back of your book some documents that were documents that you used in furtherance of your job as a detective at some point, right?
Robert Ladd (03:34:03):
I don't really understand that question.
Michael Sanft (03:34:05):
Meaning, for instance, in the back of your book, you do put in here a map of the Compton area gangs, for instance?
Robert Ladd (03:34:12):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:34:13):
You also put in here ... And the Compton area gangs, for the jury, we're talking just to highlight how compact of an area the city of Compton was, and how many different areas was claimed by different types of gangs, fair?
Robert Ladd (03:34:27):
Fair.
Michael Sanft (03:34:28):
Okay. In addition to that, you also had included in here the affidavit, the search warrant that we just talked about before, right? This 40 area search warrant?
Robert Ladd (03:34:37):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:34:38):
You put that in the book as well?
Robert Ladd (03:34:39):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:34:40):
And just for the jury's edification here, for instance, none of the information in here is redacted, meaning it's not taken out via black mark or anything like that, right?
Robert Ladd (03:34:51):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:34:53):
All right. And I'm not trying to get anybody in position here to be in trouble, but in essence, the book and the information that's in here was readily available for anyone who wanted to buy and read it?
Robert Ladd (03:35:04):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:35:05):
Okay. Now, in addition to that, did you have a publisher on this?
Robert Ladd (03:35:11):
At the beginning, we did, yes.
Michael Sanft (03:35:13):
Okay. And what do you mean at the beginning?
Robert Ladd (03:35:16):
Well, it was a publishing company, and we kind of had a little conflict with them, so we decided to leave them and self-publish.
Michael Sanft (03:35:25):
I see. And so with Lolita's help, once the book was finalized and you and Tim both felt good about the finished product with Lolita, then you just published it yourself?
Robert Ladd (03:35:36):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:35:37):
How does that work?
Robert Ladd (03:35:39):
Well, you just go to Amazon Books, and it kind of just runs you through it. It's kind of a complex system, that you have to do certain things. I mean, I didn't really do it, so I can't really tell you the exact steps because I'm not very good on the computer. I know how to turn them off and I know how to turn them on.
Michael Sanft (03:36:00):
But let me ask you this. In terms of what was happening with Amazon, once you submitted it to Amazon, Amazon becomes a platform that sells the book.
Robert Ladd (03:36:09):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:36:09):
And so if someone's interested in the book, they just look it up, and they click, and they buy the book?
Robert Ladd (03:36:15):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:36:15):
Now at some point, though, as they're buying the book, you receive a record as to how many people have purchased the book, right?
Robert Ladd (03:36:23):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:36:24):
And how much money you and Tim and Lolita would potentially be making for the sale of each book?
Robert Ladd (03:36:30):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:36:30):
Now in this case, for instance, with the sale of each book, I would imagine Amazon would've taken a pretty big chunk of the proceeds from the sale of each book.
Robert Ladd (03:36:39):
Yes. You don't make much money.
Michael Sanft (03:36:41):
Yeah. And so even though you're selling ... And with regards to Once Upon a Time in Compton, can you tell us how many of these books that you sold?
Robert Ladd (03:36:51):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:36:52):
Okay. I'm assuming at some point you did receive a check?
Robert Ladd (03:36:57):
Yeah.
Michael Sanft (03:36:57):
Okay. But not something that you could retire on?
Robert Ladd (03:37:01):
Oh, definitely not.
Michael Sanft (03:37:02):
Okay. And in terms of your books, do you remember how much they cost, how much you were selling them for?
Robert Ladd (03:37:09):
I thought it was $15.99, but I'm not positive on that.
Michael Sanft (03:37:16):
Okay. All right. Now, one of the things that's in your book as well is there was a part of the book where you had identified a MGM Grand ticket to the Tyson-Seldon fight. Do you recall that particular image in your book?
Robert Ladd (03:37:36):
I think it was ... Yeah, we recovered that out of Suge Knight's house.
Michael Sanft (03:37:40):
Yeah.
Robert Ladd (03:37:40):
Yeah.
Michael Sanft (03:37:40):
And with regard to that, if I show you ... Let me do this quick here. Your Honor, if I could approach and ask the clerk to mark this as proposed exhibit next in order?
Judge (03:37:57):
Okay. What is the next in order, Jess?
Jess (03:37:59):
BV. [inaudible 03:38:00].
Michael Sanft (03:37:59):
BV.
Judge (03:38:04):
She'll put it on there. Is it BB?
Michael Sanft (03:38:06):
BV.
Judge (03:38:07):
Okay, got it. It'll be admitted.
Michael Sanft (03:38:09):
Thank you. Oh, was there any objection? I apologize.
Speaker 14 (03:38:11):
I just need to see it first.
Judge (03:38:12):
Oh.
Speaker 14 (03:38:18):
No objection.
Judge (03:38:19):
So admitted.
Michael Sanft (03:38:20):
May I approach, Your Honor?
Judge (03:38:22):
You may.
Michael Sanft (03:38:22):
Do you recall this particular image in your book, sir, showing you what's been marked as BV?
Robert Ladd (03:38:27):
Yeah, it looks like it, yes.
Michael Sanft (03:38:29):
Okay. And that was a ticket stub, it looks like, to the Seldon-Tyson fight?
Robert Ladd (03:38:37):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:38:37):
On September 7th, 1996?
Robert Ladd (03:38:40):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:38:41):
And that ticket stub was located in Suge Knight's house?
Robert Ladd (03:38:44):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:38:59):
Okay. Thank you. I'll just leave it for the jury here, so they can see. Do you recall when Suge Knight's house was searched?
Robert Ladd (03:39:09):
I think it was October 2nd? Well, the day we served all 38 search warrants.
Michael Sanft (03:39:13):
I see. And so his house was one of the houses that you were searching to basically try to quell any potential violence in Compton, as well as gather information?
Robert Ladd (03:39:26):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:39:26):
Now, with regards to this particular ticket, though, because it was captured, there was an understanding between all the police officers conducting all the searches at the same time, that you were looking for information leading to the murder of Tupac that had occurred in September?
Robert Ladd (03:39:42):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:39:43):
So with regard to this ticket, for instance, because it was the Seldon-Tyson fight on the night of Tupac's murder, this ticket was obtained by you or kept in evidence as part of your investigation?
Robert Ladd (03:39:57):
It wasn't part of our investigation, no. It was for Las Vegas PD.
Michael Sanft (03:40:02):
Right. So let's get a little bit into that. I want to make sure that the jury understands. So in terms of the actual murder investigation itself, that was the jurisdiction of Las Vegas Metro?
Robert Ladd (03:40:12):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:40:16):
Which I guess is difficult here, right? Because potentially everyone that's a potential suspect in the Las Vegas murder potentially would've been residing in Compton, right?
Robert Ladd (03:40:28):
Not necessarily, but most of them did.
Michael Sanft (03:40:31):
Yeah. And so on this particular day, when you're out executing the search warrant with all the different locations, you had invited the detectives that were assigned to the Metro homicide investigation here to come out to Compton, to be present so that they could interview people if they wanted to?
Robert Ladd (03:40:49):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:40:50):
All right. And so this particular piece of information would've been something that they would've been interested in; I would assume?
Robert Ladd (03:40:56):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:40:58):
All right. Now we talked a little bit about what was also found, and you had indicated that there were some receipts, some hotel receipts that were located. Where did I put that? Oh. I think the State had already presented this to the jury. What was the last exhibit you guys put up for the-
Speaker 14 (03:41:37):
It's 161 and 162. It's just that's the entire return for all locations, the two are up there.
Michael Sanft (03:41:45):
Okay. Sir, what you were shown earlier in terms of the affidavits in this case. Thank you. Fair to say that the size of the affidavits that were shown to you. And once again, this is for the jury's edification, State's Exhibit 161, this particular affidavit was actually a lot bigger, right?
Robert Ladd (03:42:11):
What do you mean by that?
Michael Sanft (03:42:12):
Well, meaning for instance, that you were targeting some 38 houses, which means that each house had its own paperwork attached to it, which would've made this document a lot bigger than what this document is right now.
Robert Ladd (03:42:24):
Oh, for sure. Yup.
Michael Sanft (03:42:25):
Yeah. And then with regards to the document, we're targeting or focusing on ... The first item here, looks like it was a ... Let's see here. In State's Exhibit 162, there was a reference here to a hotel receipt, right?
Robert Ladd (03:42:59):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:43:00):
Now the property report here that we're looking at on 162, which I will show without the ... This is the property report that we referred to earlier, right?
Robert Ladd (03:43:15):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:43:16):
And the hotel receipt that's on there is one of the items that was taken from this particular property, right?
Robert Ladd (03:43:26):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:43:27):
Do you have that receipt?
Robert Ladd (03:43:29):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:43:32):
Okay. So unlike, for instance, the Suge Knight ticket, indicating that there was a fight and so forth in Las Vegas, September 7th, 1996, this indicates that there was something taken, and that would've been that hotel's receipt. But you don't have it here?
Robert Ladd (03:43:50):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:43:52):
Do you know where its location is at all?
Robert Ladd (03:43:54):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:43:56):
Now, in addition to that, you also, in one of the other homes, had indicated that there was a letter from the Excalibur Casino and so forth. I'm going to show you this document here. This is State's Exhibit 163. And just for the jury's edification here, let me just ... So it looks like here, on number one, this would've been the receipt of property taken, correct?
Robert Ladd (03:44:28):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:44:29):
And underneath that here, number one would show a letter from Excalibur Casino, addressed to Orlando Anderson, right?
Robert Ladd (03:44:37):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:44:38):
All right. Do you know the date of this particular document?
Robert Ladd (03:44:47):
It would've had to be the same day of the search warrant. Well, I'm
Michael Sanft (03:44:50):
Sorry. I'm talking about the letter itself.
Robert Ladd (03:44:53):
Oh, no.
Michael Sanft (03:44:53):
Okay. And do you have a copy of that letter?
Robert Ladd (03:44:56):
I do not, no.
Michael Sanft (03:44:57):
All right. Do you know where that letter is?
Robert Ladd (03:44:59):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:45:00):
All right. The next part here looks like there's an envelope addressed to, once again, Orlando Anderson. And with regards to this particular document, do you have any indication of where that document is?
Robert Ladd (03:45:14):
No. It was booked into property.
Michael Sanft (03:45:16):
Right. And that's the same thing with number three, on miscellaneous bills addressed to Orlando Anderson, right?
Robert Ladd (03:45:22):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:45:22):
None of these documents are addressed directly to Mr. Duane Davis, fair?
Robert Ladd (03:45:28):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:45:29):
And once again, when you are searching and finding something like, for instance, the Suge Knight ticket, that document is carefully taken from the scene and put into evidence in a way that would preserve the chain of custody of something like the ticket?
Robert Ladd (03:45:47):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:45:48):
Now, in this case, when you searched either the two residences in this case, did you find any indication at all, any MGM Grand ticket of being on the second row of the fight, anything at all that would indicate that Mr. Davis was actually in Las Vegas?
Robert Ladd (03:46:06):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:46:06):
Okay. Now, in addition to that, we had talked a little bit about the second search warrant, and the second search warrant is this one here, State's Exhibit 136. Okay. Now, when a search warrant is executed in California, at the time it's executed, is it confidential or sealed?
Robert Ladd (03:46:46):
Sometimes, yes.
Michael Sanft (03:46:47):
In this particular case, with this particular search warrant, was this search warrant sealed?
Robert Ladd (03:46:51):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:46:52):
And was it sealed up until the time that the search had been conducted?
Robert Ladd (03:46:58):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:46:59):
Okay. When did this particular search warrant become unsealed?
Robert Ladd (03:47:05):
I don't recall.
Michael Sanft (03:47:06):
Okay. Fair to say though, that if someone's charged in a crime based upon search warrants that are sealed, that that search warrant would then be available for the defense to look at?
Robert Ladd (03:47:17):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:47:18):
And it would be unsealed at that point?
Robert Ladd (03:47:19):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:47:20):
And that would be the same, of course, with the search warrant that occurred at the beginning of October, the year before, right?
Robert Ladd (03:47:27):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:47:28):
So in this case, with this particular search warrant here, this is dated as of May 27th, 1997. On this particular one here, you had indicated the following, this is on page four of this document. The information that I think we're most interested in is line four of that document, right?
Robert Ladd (03:48:01):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:48:02):
Meaning that, once again, these are items that were taken from this home, and those items were put into your property or evidence log?
Robert Ladd (03:48:11):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:48:12):
And number four is a money due bill from the Monte Carlo Casino, right?
Robert Ladd (03:48:20):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:48:20):
Can you tell us the date of what this money due bill was for?
Robert Ladd (03:48:25):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:48:26):
All right. And once again, your search, in this particular regard was actually May of 1997, right? Quite a few months after the September 7th, 1996 shooting?
Robert Ladd (03:48:40):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:48:41):
In addition to that, in terms of that money due, can you tell us, for instance, who that money due bill was addressed to?
Robert Ladd (03:48:49):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:48:49):
Okay. Now, there were some questions by the State on that issue, about the fact that this was actually a search warrant investigating into the murder of Denise Smalls. Remember that line of questioning from the State?
Robert Ladd (03:49:06):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:49:08):
But fair to say, of course, that even then, as you're conducting this kind of investigation, you are still thinking about the Tupac case, right?
Robert Ladd (03:49:15):
For sure.
Michael Sanft (03:49:16):
Yeah. You weren't just at that particular point forgetting that the Tupac murder even occurred. You're still thinking during that time period, if you run across something you think is relevant, you would've identified it, right?
Robert Ladd (03:49:27):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:49:28):
In addition to that though, you would've identified and you would've called Metro to say, "Hey, by the way, we got something here that will help you with the Tupac murder investigation," fair?
Robert Ladd (03:49:37):
Fair.
Michael Sanft (03:49:37):
Okay. There's no reason why you wouldn't have done that?
Robert Ladd (03:49:42):
Not that I know of, no.
Michael Sanft (03:49:46):
Now, we talked a little bit about the size of some of the people that were involved here. And I think was it DeAndre Smith you said was a pretty big guy?
Robert Ladd (03:49:56):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:49:57):
All right. And you said he was like, what, 6'2", 6'3", and about 300 pounds, something like that? Big guy?
Robert Ladd (03:50:01):
About 6'4", 300 pounds.
Michael Sanft (03:50:03):
Okay. Did he play any sports or anything as far as you know?
Robert Ladd (03:50:09):
I think he did, but I'm not positive what sport.
Michael Sanft (03:50:13):
Now, are you aware of an individual by the name of Terrence Brown?
Robert Ladd (03:50:18):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:50:18):
And was Terrence Brown one of the individuals that was potentially a suspect in the Tupac murder?
Robert Ladd (03:50:24):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:50:25):
All right. Now, with regards to Terrence Brown, can you describe for us his size as well?
Robert Ladd (03:50:31):
Yeah, he's approximately a little shorter than you and just medium built-
Michael Sanft (03:50:38):
So a good-looking guy?
Robert Ladd (03:50:39):
... [inaudible 03:50:40] back then.
Michael Sanft (03:50:41):
I'm sorry?
Robert Ladd (03:50:41):
I don't know about that, but.
Michael Sanft (03:50:46):
So it's a little bit shorter than me and about my size.
Robert Ladd (03:50:48):
Right.
Michael Sanft (03:50:48):
Okay. Let's just put it down as ... I'm 6'2", so that's like ... I'm just getting. 5'8" and something else. And then in terms of at the time with Terrence Brown, you are aware that Terrence Brown actually dies in, what, 2015?
Robert Ladd (03:51:10):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:51:11):
Right. And when he dies ... Do you know how he dies?
Robert Ladd (03:51:17):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:51:18):
How did he die?
Robert Ladd (03:51:19):
He was at a marijuana dispensary in Compton, and a robbery occurred, and he got killed during the robbery.
Michael Sanft (03:51:28):
So based upon the way he was murdered in that case, no indication that that was some type of retaliation for the murder of Tupac in 1996 or 1997?
Robert Ladd (03:51:37):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:51:37):
Okay. In addition to that ... 1996, I apologize. With regards to DeAndre Smith, do you know when he passed?
Robert Ladd (03:51:47):
2004, and he died of medical complications.
Michael Sanft (03:51:52):
Right. And as far as you know, nothing that would've been associated with any type of retribution or revenge for the murder of Tupac Shakur?
Robert Ladd (03:52:02):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:52:04):
Now, Orlando is the one who passes away relatively quickly after the shooting?
Robert Ladd (03:52:10):
Yes, approximately a year and a half.
Michael Sanft (03:52:13):
Right. And in terms of how he passes, he was shot and killed?
Robert Ladd (03:52:17):
Yes. You want me to tell you what happened?
Michael Sanft (03:52:19):
Please.
Robert Ladd (03:52:21):
Orlando Anderson was with his best friend, Michael Dorrough, and they were at a burger stand in Compton. and across the street from the burger stand, there was a car wash. Orlando Anderson recognized the people at the car. There was three people sitting in the car, and he recognized one of them that owed him money for some narcotics that he didn't pay him for. So Orlando Anderson took it upon himself, and he initiated the confrontation. He drove up to the car, and he exited with a gun. However, one of the persons in the other car, they had a gun too, so they had a shootout at the car wash. And then when the smoke cleared, Orlando Anderson was killed during the shootout, as well as two other people in the other car were killed.
Michael Sanft (03:53:07):
And in terms of the two other people in the other vehicle, were they both Crips?
Robert Ladd (03:53:12):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:53:13):
So it wasn't a Blood-on-Crip sort of shootout?
Robert Ladd (03:53:17):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:53:17):
It was just over money and drugs?
Robert Ladd (03:53:19):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:53:25):
Now, we've had some discussion here about Darnell Brim. And you're familiar with Darnell Brim?
Robert Ladd (03:53:32):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:53:32):
And the way I'm understanding this is that within the South Side Crips, you had two different factions?
Robert Ladd (03:53:39):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:53:40):
You had the Glencoe faction with Darnell Brim.
Robert Ladd (03:53:43):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:53:44):
And then you had the Burr Street factions.
Robert Ladd (03:53:44):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:53:48):
Now, in terms of the two different factions that we have here, the Burr Street faction was a faction that was dealing with the drugs mostly?
Robert Ladd (03:54:01):
I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
Michael Sanft (03:54:04):
In terms of the Burr Street faction, did they deal in drugs?
Robert Ladd (03:54:08):
That was one of the things that they were involved in, yes.
Michael Sanft (03:54:11):
Yeah. And in terms of the other faction, we talked a bit about Darnell Brim, he was a shot caller?
Robert Ladd (03:54:18):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:54:18):
And he was a violent person?
Robert Ladd (03:54:20):
He had the potential of being a violent person, yes.
Michael Sanft (03:54:23):
Well, you recall in your book describing him as a very violent person?
Robert Ladd (03:54:30):
I don't recall that. But if it's in there, it's what I said.
Michael Sanft (03:54:35):
Okay. And once again, it would've been something that if it wasn't true in your book, you would've corrected it?
Robert Ladd (03:54:42):
Yeah. I'm not saying he wasn't a violent person. He definitely had the potential of being a violent person.
Michael Sanft (03:54:48):
And isn't it fair to say though, even in your book, that you describe him as being someone that was implicated in some attempt murders, that kind of thing as well?
Robert Ladd (03:54:57):
Absolutely.
Michael Sanft (03:54:58):
Darnell Brim?
Robert Ladd (03:54:58):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:54:59):
Now, Darnell Brim is shot in the back how many days after the shooting of Tupac Shakur?
Robert Ladd (03:55:05):
Two.
Michael Sanft (03:55:08):
And with regards to the shooting in the back, do you know who shot him in the back?
Robert Ladd (03:55:13):
No. We were told it was Pirus, though.
Michael Sanft (03:55:18):
Right. And would that fall more into the idea of what you're saying about retaliation in this case?
Robert Ladd (03:55:24):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:55:25):
Now, there are other people that potentially were considered, I think including the initial investigation here, as being part of the Tupac murder. Do you recall a person by the name of Noel "Spank" Johnson?
Robert Ladd (03:55:39):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:55:40):
All right. And he is also a South Side Crip member, part of the Glencoe crew?
Robert Ladd (03:55:48):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:55:49):
All right. Do you recall a person by the name of Jerry "Monk" Bond?
Robert Ladd (03:55:55):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:55:55):
All right. Once again, part of the Glencoe crew?
Robert Ladd (03:55:58):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:55:59):
And then also Orlando Anderson?
Robert Ladd (03:56:02):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:56:03):
Okay. So those individuals at some point were considered to be potentially involved in the murder of Tupac Shakur, correct?
Robert Ladd (03:56:14):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:56:15):
Okay. Now, in addition to that, when you had conducted the searches on Mr. Davis's home and the locations that we're at, did you ever find money?
Robert Ladd (03:56:29):
Not that I'm aware of, no.
Michael Sanft (03:56:31):
No vast sums of money for somebody making 20% of $4 million a month?
Robert Ladd (03:56:36):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:56:36):
How about expensive clothes, like stuff that was worth ... You know, suits worth $6,000, anything like that?
Robert Ladd (03:56:43):
I don't recall the clothing that was inside.
Michael Sanft (03:56:45):
Yeah. But in terms of just information about the individual's living conditions, for instance, did you find any expensive cars that he owned or anything like that, besides the low riders and stuff that people put a lot of work into?
Robert Ladd (03:56:59):
Well, them are expensive cars to me, so yes, we did.
Michael Sanft (03:57:03):
And when you say low riders, are we talking about low riders here or BMWs?
Robert Ladd (03:57:08):
Monte Carlos, hydraulics, all that kind of stuff.
Michael Sanft (03:57:12):
Sure. And in terms of the Monte Carlos and the hydraulics, Mr. Davis was actually part of what they call a low rider club in Compton?
Robert Ladd (03:57:25):
I wasn't aware of that.
Michael Sanft (03:57:26):
Okay. You're not aware of ... Well, let me ask this next question. But in terms of the vehicles we're talking about, they were not for Mercedes-Benz, BMW, nothing like that? They were just modified cars?
Robert Ladd (03:57:43):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:57:45):
Now, in addition to that, going back to your book, do you have anything in here, like a disclaimer that says that, "Hey, we can't verify the truthfulness of the book at all"?
Robert Ladd (03:58:06):
I'm not sure.
Michael Sanft (03:58:08):
All right. If you were just to review the book real quick, just to tell me if there is anything like that, would that help your recollection?
Robert Ladd (03:58:13):
Honestly, I wouldn't even know where to look.
Michael Sanft (03:58:15):
It should be in the front, because it'd be a big warning. You want to check it out?
Robert Ladd (03:58:18):
No, there's nothing in there to that effect then.
Michael Sanft (03:58:24):
Okay. Have you ever read a guy by the name of Greg Kading's book, Murder Rap?
Robert Ladd (03:58:35):
Some of it, yes.
Michael Sanft (03:58:36):
Can you tell us who Greg Kading was?
Robert Ladd (03:58:40):
He was a LAPD sergeant.
Michael Sanft (03:58:44):
Okay. Did you have any interactions with him?
Robert Ladd (03:58:49):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:58:50):
Did he share in any investigation that you were involved in?
Robert Ladd (03:58:54):
No.
Michael Sanft (03:58:56):
Did your partner have any work with him?
Robert Ladd (03:59:02):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:59:03):
And the work that we're talking about is in the task force that was assigned to investigate the murder of Biggie Smalls?
Robert Ladd (03:59:11):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:59:12):
And Tim Brennan was part of it along with Mr. Kading?
Robert Ladd (03:59:17):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (03:59:18):
All right. Now, we had shared a little bit about the swallowing up of Compton PD by the LA Sheriff's Department.
Robert Ladd (03:59:35):
You call it swallowing up. I call it absorbed or whatever.
Michael Sanft (03:59:40):
Right. Why was that?
Robert Ladd (03:59:43):
Well, it would take ... I could tell you in a couple minutes, but it's really a six-month-long thing that happened. But I can explain it to you, if you want.
Michael Sanft (03:59:55):
Well, I mean, obviously there's a lot of moving parts, right?
Robert Ladd (03:59:58):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (03:59:59):
The absorption or dismantling of a police department is a very unusual thing, right?
Robert Ladd (04:00:05):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:00:06):
And so in order for that to happen, if I can just cut right to the chase with you, was there corruption going on within the department that caused the absorption of the department back to the sheriff's department?
Robert Ladd (04:00:18):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:00:18):
Okay. Then what was it that caused it?
Robert Ladd (04:00:22):
It was the mayor, Omar Bradley, at the time, was being investigated by the FBI. He found out that he was being investigated by the FBI, and he blamed our chief. So what he did is he put our chief and a captain off on administrative leave, and he made some allegations of missing narcotics. Now, these guys were two 30-year veterans with prestigious careers. Our department elected to do a vote of no confidence against the mayor. And this really pissed the mayor off. And he went to the city council, and they voted to bring in the sheriffs. And they never asked the citizens if that's what they wanted. He just did that upon himself.
(04:01:23)
Now there was a long investigation regarding the stolen narcotics, and our two captain and chief were exonerated. There was a 60-page report on it, and it was resulted in one Hispanic narcotic officer was taking the narcotics, and he was dealt with. So the bottom line is we lost our police department, 112-year-old police department. Omar Bradley ends up getting arrested and convicted, so everybody lost here.
Michael Sanft (04:01:59):
Yeah. And as a result of that, I think you told us earlier you didn't stay in the city of Compton, or you got reassigned to another city?
Robert Ladd (04:02:09):
No, I stayed in the city of Compton for a year, and then I elected to go to another agency.
Michael Sanft (04:02:16):
I see. All right. And then while you were there, the other thing that you did, and you shared with us a bit about the fact that you were very well-versed in the gang culture in Compton, right?
Robert Ladd (04:02:32):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:02:33):
And well-versed, meaning that you can identify and see patterns of behavior that would indicate to you maybe gang activity, for instance, right?
Robert Ladd (04:02:44):
Yeah.
Michael Sanft (04:02:44):
And that would also include how a person dressed. We talked a little about [inaudible 04:02:48]. I apologize. For instance, even the way a person dresses in blue, right? That would help you determine, maybe, potentially that that person's associated with a type of gang?
Robert Ladd (04:03:00):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:03:01):
Like in this case-
Robert Ladd (04:03:04):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:03:04):
No? All right. But with regards to the way it's set up though, did you at any point ever determine that Tupac Shakur was a member of a gang?
Robert Ladd (04:03:18):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:03:20):
Why not?
Robert Ladd (04:03:21):
Because he wasn't.
Michael Sanft (04:03:24):
And when you say that, I mean obviously he's associated with the Death Row label.
Robert Ladd (04:03:31):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:03:32):
And he was also at that particular point hanging around with Suge Knight.
Robert Ladd (04:03:36):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:03:37):
And Suge Knight was an identified Mob Piru or an associate of the Mob Piru?
Robert Ladd (04:03:41):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:03:42):
As well as other people who were Mob Piru, like MOB James, for instance, that was in that association.
Robert Ladd (04:03:47):
Yes. His entourage were all Mob Piru gang members.
Michael Sanft (04:03:51):
Okay. But you're telling us right now that Tupac was not a gang member?
Robert Ladd (04:03:56):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:03:57):
Just because he was hanging around these people did not make him a gang member?
Robert Ladd (04:04:00):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:04:01):
Now, fair to say, of course, that even in the Death Row record label, there were actually Crips that were assigned that were part of that label as well, right?
Robert Ladd (04:04:10):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:04:11):
That would've been Snoop Dogg?
Robert Ladd (04:04:12):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:04:12):
That would've been Dr. Dre?
Robert Ladd (04:04:13):
I'm not sure about Dr. Dre.
Michael Sanft (04:04:17):
Who's the other one that I'm thinking of? Is it Eazy-E?
Robert Ladd (04:04:21):
He wasn't associated with that record label. I don't think he was.
Michael Sanft (04:04:26):
You tell me, because I'm trying to figure it out. But fair to say though that within business, it wasn't about a color as much as it was about money, right? You're making money, and so you're not isolating one segment of the population from the other in terms of your product?
Robert Ladd (04:04:42):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:04:43):
Okay. Now with regards to MOB James at that particular point, you had told us that you believed he was an OG at the time?
Robert Ladd (04:04:53):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:04:56):
Did MOB James have any indication for violence?
Robert Ladd (04:05:03):
I never [inaudible 03:55:17]-
Robert Ladd (04:05:03):
I never investigated for any violence because he was in jail most of the time that I was in patrol and in the gang unit. And I don't know exactly when he got out, but when he got out, he was already older and he didn't really hang out with the younger gangsters.
Michael Sanft (04:05:22):
I see. And with regard to this retaliation thing we talked about, you said there was some concern that once the shots were fired and Tupac was hit, that there was concern that there was going to be some type of gang war back in Compton, right?
Robert Ladd (04:05:39):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:05:39):
Now, you shared with us a little bit how this worked. You were asleep in bed and you get a call early morning from Reggie Wright Sr.
Robert Ladd (04:05:52):
I don't recall if I was asleep in bed, but I was at home.
Michael Sanft (04:05:53):
Okay. And can you tell us what time that you received the call from Reggie White Sr?
Robert Ladd (04:05:59):
I don't recall. It was a long time ago.
Michael Sanft (04:06:01):
Okay. But would it have been still that evening or that night?
Robert Ladd (04:06:05):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:06:05):
Not the next morning or anything like that?
Robert Ladd (04:06:06):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:06:09):
And the reason why he would've called you is because he was your direct boss?
Robert Ladd (04:06:13):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:06:14):
Okay. Now, in addition to that, you had also mentioned that this retaliation. The shootings that occur after you have, is it Mr. Brim's first... Was the first shot fired against between the Mob Piru and the Southside Crips? Was he the first one shot?
Robert Ladd (04:06:38):
Darnell?
Michael Sanft (04:06:39):
Yeah.
Robert Ladd (04:06:39):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:06:40):
And then after Darnell, who was the next person shot?
Robert Ladd (04:06:44):
I believe it was the next day at 713 North Bradfield, I believe two people were shot and that's in Piru territory.
Michael Sanft (04:06:56):
Do you know if they were Piru?
Robert Ladd (04:06:58):
They were.
Michael Sanft (04:06:58):
They were. And do you know who shot them?
Robert Ladd (04:07:04):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:07:05):
All right. Now with regards to the Darnell Brim, do you know who shot him?
Robert Ladd (04:07:11):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:07:13):
Now, in terms of the two Piru that were shot the morning after Mr. Brim, do you know how the order was given out for these people to be shot?
Robert Ladd (04:07:25):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:07:26):
So no phone records, for instance, from Mr. Davis indicating that he wanted these people shot or anything like that?
Robert Ladd (04:07:34):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:07:35):
Now, after the two Piru were shot, what happened next?
Robert Ladd (04:07:40):
I believe later on, another person was shot at Pine and Bradfield in Mob Piru territory.
Michael Sanft (04:07:48):
And was that person a Crip or a Blood?
Robert Ladd (04:07:51):
The person that was shot was Piru affiliated, yes.
Michael Sanft (04:07:54):
Okay. So two Pirus are shot that day, and then later on that day, another Piru affiliate was shot?
Robert Ladd (04:08:00):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:08:01):
All right. And do you know if that was an order that was given out by anybody to shoot that Piru?
Robert Ladd (04:08:06):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:08:07):
Okay. And then the next person shot after that was who?
Robert Ladd (04:08:12):
I don't recall the name, but I believe it was 80 something South Ward Street.
Michael Sanft (04:08:19):
Was that-
Robert Ladd (04:08:20):
And that's in Crip territory.
Michael Sanft (04:08:21):
And so that person was a Crip?
Robert Ladd (04:08:24):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:08:24):
All right. And that shot occurred when or when did that shooting occur?
Robert Ladd (04:08:33):
I don't recall.
Michael Sanft (04:08:34):
All right. And as far as you know, this is happening over the course of maybe... There was 10 days. I think that was how it was framed. It was like it's a 10-day war in Compton.
Robert Ladd (04:08:46):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:08:47):
But fair to say it may have been a little bit longer, like maybe 13 days, right?
Robert Ladd (04:08:52):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:08:52):
Okay [inaudible 04:08:54]. So if we go with 10 days in this, any proof at all that we can show this jury that Mr. Davis ordered any of the shootings to occur in this case?
Robert Ladd (04:09:06):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:09:07):
Now, in addition to that, the idea here behind the shootings, we go back to the Lakewood Mall incident, right?
Robert Ladd (04:09:22):
Sure.
Michael Sanft (04:09:23):
Is the Lakewood Mall incident in your mind the definitive act in which the war is now declared between the Mob Piru and the Southside Crips?
Robert Ladd (04:09:37):
That was the first incident that sparked this whole back and forth thing, yes.
Michael Sanft (04:09:46):
Now let me ask you this. Did it really happen?
Robert Ladd (04:09:49):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:09:50):
Okay. Now in your book, you identify it as happening at the Lakewood Mall?
Robert Ladd (04:09:55):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:09:56):
And it happened in a Foot Locker?
Robert Ladd (04:09:58):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:09:59):
Now, do you have any indication at all of a police report or a call for 911 to the area on a fight that occurs at the Lakewood Mall that day?
Robert Ladd (04:10:11):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:10:11):
No?
Robert Ladd (04:10:12):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:10:12):
Do you have indication at all from the security people at the mall where they would've written up a report that said, "Hey, we had an altercation here at the Lakewood Mall?"
Robert Ladd (04:10:24):
I don't think a report was generated by the security officers, no.
Michael Sanft (04:10:28):
Okay. Now, fair to say, of course, there's been some description of that brawl being the kind of brawl that actually required Foot Locker to redo their entire inside because it just destroyed the inside. Do you recall anything like that?
Robert Ladd (04:10:44):
I never heard anything like that. I just know there was a fight at the Foot Locker.
Michael Sanft (04:10:49):
Right. You heard there was a fight, but you never made any effort, for instance, and it's not your job because it's Lakewood, right?
Robert Ladd (04:10:56):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:10:56):
But in essence, no verification that even Foot Locker was contacted to say, "Hey, did a fight break out of here on this particular day?" Nothing like that?
Robert Ladd (04:11:06):
Don't recall.
Michael Sanft (04:11:07):
Okay. So in essence, what we have right now is what you had heard from people on the street as to what happened at this Lakewood Mall incident, right?
Robert Ladd (04:11:15):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:11:16):
Now, some people, I would assume, thought that the shooting of Tupac was in retaliation or maybe the fight of Tupac in Orlando was in retaliation to what happened at Lakewood Mall. But as you're sitting right now, you don't have any actual proof of the Lakewood Mall incident actually occurred?
Robert Ladd (04:11:34):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:11:34):
Okay. Yeah. Now in addition to that, we had heard from you a little bit about... I'm sorry, I just have to make sure I got all my notes here. We talked a little bit about your identifying of a shot caller, right? Now, a shot caller is somebody who basically tells people what to do.
Robert Ladd (04:12:03):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:12:04):
And you had said that the shot caller is somebody that if an order is given to one of the other lower people on the totem pole, they have to follow that order?
Robert Ladd (04:12:13):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:12:13):
All right. And in this particular regard, you don't know, for instance, what happened in Las Vegas, who did anything in terms of a shot call or anything like that, right?
Robert Ladd (04:12:27):
I don't understand the question.
Michael Sanft (04:12:28):
Meaning you don't have any proof for us today that says that... First of all, even if TPD was in Las Vegas, right, you don't have any proof of that?
Robert Ladd (04:12:34):
His own admission.
Michael Sanft (04:12:40):
Besides the admission, you don't have any actual physical evidence that supports that, right?
Robert Ladd (04:12:45):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:12:46):
And then in terms of his admission, did you ever verify what he was telling people to see if what he was saying was true?
Robert Ladd (04:12:55):
As far as what?
Michael Sanft (04:12:56):
Being in Las Vegas.
Robert Ladd (04:12:58):
Did I?
Michael Sanft (04:12:58):
Yeah.
Robert Ladd (04:12:59):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:12:59):
Okay. So in terms of the information that was given, you're just saying that because Mr. Davis was a drug dealer and maybe had provided money for the Southside Crips or something like that, that because of that, he is a leader in the South Side Crips?
Robert Ladd (04:13:17):
Well, there's more to it than that.
Michael Sanft (04:13:20):
Sure. But I just want to make sure I'm clear about something here. In terms of your investigation in this case, did Keffe D ever order a hit on anybody before or after the shooting of Tupac Shakur?
Robert Ladd (04:13:36):
Not that I know of.
Michael Sanft (04:13:38):
I have no further questions. Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:13:39):
Okay. Redirect by Mr. Palal.
Binu Palal (04:13:44):
Yes. I'm going to start where Mr. Sanft left off. So Mr. Sanft asked you if you had any proof that Mr. Davis was in Las Vegas at the time of the Tupac Shakur murder, and your response was his admission, is that fair to say?
Robert Ladd (04:14:07):
Right.
Binu Palal (04:14:08):
Now you have investigated hundreds of homicides, is that right?
Robert Ladd (04:14:12):
Correct.
Binu Palal (04:14:13):
Have you ever relied on a defendant's or suspect's admission to form a case?
Robert Ladd (04:14:19):
Yes, sir.
Binu Palal (04:14:20):
In fact, in gang cases in particular where witnesses are scared to come out, is a defendant's admission of committing a murder powerful evidence used to prosecute?
Robert Ladd (04:14:30):
Yeah, basically that's how most of our gang crimes get solved is by self-admission or incrimination.
Binu Palal (04:14:39):
Okay. And then Mr. Sanft asked you about you don't know whether or not Mr. Davis ordered a hit. And to be fair, you weren't in the Cadillac, were you?
Robert Ladd (04:14:51):
No.
Binu Palal (04:14:52):
Okay. But let's go through Mr. Sanft's logic. You had said that Mr. Davis was a shot caller within the Southside Crips, is that fair?
Robert Ladd (04:15:04):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:15:05):
And then let me pose this to you. Using Mr. Davis's admissions, if Mr. Brown, Terrence Brown, DeAndre Smith, and Orlando Anderson and Mr. Davis are in a car, who is the leader in that car?
Robert Ladd (04:15:20):
Mr. Davis.
Binu Palal (04:15:21):
Who is the shot caller in that car?
Robert Ladd (04:15:23):
Mr. Davis.
Binu Palal (04:15:23):
And so if a shot is coming, if those four people are in a car and shots are coming out of that, who has to give the authorization?
Robert Ladd (04:15:32):
Mr. Davis.
Binu Palal (04:15:34):
Okay. So if Mr. Davis is in the Cadillac, he's the one calling that shot?
Robert Ladd (04:15:38):
Absolutely. If he tells him not to do it and say, "Let's handle his back in Compton," they wouldn't have had a shooting. If he sanctioned it, then there'd be a shooting.
Binu Palal (04:15:48):
And Mr. Orlando Anderson, he was what you had called a gangster, right?
Robert Ladd (04:15:55):
Absolutely.
Binu Palal (04:15:55):
So he would be the person that would have to listen to Mr. Davis?
Robert Ladd (04:16:01):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:16:01):
And so was it in your experience, knowing the roles of everybody in that vehicle, could Mr. Anderson shoot that gun with Mr. Davis in the car without Mr. Davis' permission?
Robert Ladd (04:16:15):
No.
Binu Palal (04:16:19):
Now let's talk about your book. When was your book published?
Robert Ladd (04:16:29):
2017.
Binu Palal (04:16:30):
Okay. So that would be well after Mr. Davis's proffer statement, correct?
Robert Ladd (04:16:36):
Correct.
Binu Palal (04:16:36):
Be well after his 2009 statement to the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department?
Robert Ladd (04:16:42):
Correct.
Binu Palal (04:16:43):
And it might be contemporaneous, we don't know, to the time of his statement to the Death Rows Records.
Robert Ladd (04:16:48):
Correct.
Binu Palal (04:16:56):
I want to talk a little bit about the LA Sheriff's Office absorbing the Compton Police Department. Is it fair to say that a function of that transfer was that some of the evidence that was retained from those search warrants just were, for lack of a better term, lost?
Robert Ladd (04:17:15):
Yes. I mean, I didn't know it at the time. I mean, we just switched police departments and they absorbed us and they were responsible for all the evidence too. So I don't know what happened to it after we got absorbed by the Sheriff's Department.
Binu Palal (04:17:33):
Mr. Sanft mentioned Reggie Wright Sr. to you. Did Reggie Wright Sr. ever ask you to work on behalf of the Mob Pirus?
Robert Ladd (04:17:42):
No.
Binu Palal (04:17:42):
Did you ever work on behalf of the Mob Pirus?
Robert Ladd (04:17:48):
Never.
Binu Palal (04:17:48):
Okay. Talking about the Burris Street faction, Mr. Sanft asked you some questions about South Siders. Darnell Brim was actually in conflict with the Burris Street crew. Is that fair?
Robert Ladd (04:18:08):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:18:09):
But Michael Dorrough was a member of the Southside Compton Crips, the Burris Street Crew, is that fair?
Robert Ladd (04:18:15):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:18:16):
I think he went by Lil Owl, is that right?
Robert Ladd (04:18:19):
That is correct.
Binu Palal (04:18:29):
Were you aware that the court actually has taken judicial notice of the fact that Lil Owl was actually in custody during the September 7th, 1996 murder of Tupac Shakur?
Robert Ladd (04:18:42):
That is correct.
Binu Palal (04:18:45):
Hard for him to be the person responsible for the murder of Tupac Shakur.
Robert Ladd (04:18:47):
Yeah. Yeah.
Binu Palal (04:18:48):
Okay. Now, Orlando Anderson, he was also a member of the Burris Street Crew. Is that fair to say?
Robert Ladd (04:18:54):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:19:04):
And we had talked about before Corey Edwards was a member of the South Side Compton Crips Burris Street Crew. Is that correct?
Robert Ladd (04:19:11):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:19:11):
Okay. [inaudible 04:19:18]
Judge Carli Kierny (04:19:19):
Recross, Mr. Sanft.
Michael Sanft (04:19:22):
Thank you, Your Honor.
(04:19:22)
We'll get a clean copy for you.
(04:19:22)
[inaudible 04:19:42].
(04:19:22)
No.
Binu Palal (04:19:42):
Okay.
Michael Sanft (04:20:01):
Just a couple of things, sir. In terms of the publication of your book, can you tell us, you said that was accurate, right?
Robert Ladd (04:20:09):
Yes. I tried to be.
Michael Sanft (04:20:11):
I'm sorry?
Robert Ladd (04:20:12):
I tried to be.
Michael Sanft (04:20:13):
No, no. And it's fine. We're not really going to knock it. I just want to know that at some point in here you do identify Mr. Davis as Keffe D, correct?
Robert Ladd (04:20:24):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:20:24):
Do you recall the spelling of his name in the book?
Robert Ladd (04:20:28):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:20:28):
Do you recall how you spelled his name?
Robert Ladd (04:20:31):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:20:31):
Would review of your book help you in terms of how you spelled his name in the book?
Robert Ladd (04:20:35):
Sure.
Michael Sanft (04:20:36):
Okay. Let me make sure I got it here. Your Honor, may I approach?
Judge Carli Kierny (04:20:36):
You may.
Robert Ladd (04:20:36):
Okay.
Michael Sanft (04:21:00):
Okay. And just for the record, how did you spell his name in the book?
Robert Ladd (04:21:04):
K-E-E-F-E.
Michael Sanft (04:21:06):
All right. And do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of your spelling of his name?
Robert Ladd (04:21:14):
I could be misspelled. I don't know.
Michael Sanft (04:21:16):
Yeah.
Robert Ladd (04:21:18):
I don't-
Michael Sanft (04:21:18):
Go ahead.
Robert Ladd (04:21:18):
No, go ahead.
Michael Sanft (04:21:19):
No, but in terms of, for instance, I would imagine during the time period that that's not a usual name, Keffe.
Robert Ladd (04:21:29):
No.
Michael Sanft (04:21:31):
And you would've learned that that name, Keffe, was more of a nickname?
Robert Ladd (04:21:36):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:21:36):
It wasn't his birth name, for instance?
Robert Ladd (04:21:38):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:21:39):
And in terms of that name itself, you would've had, say for instance, field interview cards. If you ever ran across individuals, you would put their names down and maybe their monikers or their street names or their nicknames, for instance?
Robert Ladd (04:21:55):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:21:56):
Did you ever fill out a field interview card for Mr. Davis?
Robert Ladd (04:22:00):
I don't think I ever did, no.
Michael Sanft (04:22:02):
Yeah. And once again, these field interview cards that you would've used are cards that would help law enforcement identify people that potentially are gang affiliated?
Robert Ladd (04:22:14):
Yes, it does help. Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:22:15):
Yeah. And what usually would happen, I would assume, is that when you happen upon someone that you're speaking to and you identified him to be maybe a member of a gang, you would write up information about him, including his nickname and so forth on a card that would help other law enforcement know whether or not they're affiliated with a gang or not?
Robert Ladd (04:22:34):
Correct.
Michael Sanft (04:22:36):
So in this particular regard though, you being the detective for the gang unit in Compton, which according to your book was actually very small. At some point it starts out with you and Tim as being the main gang detectives in Compton.
Robert Ladd (04:22:53):
Yes.
Michael Sanft (04:22:53):
And so you had a lot of people to go through, but even then you don't recall ever filling out a field interview card identifying him as a gang member?
Robert Ladd (04:23:04):
No, but he self-admitted it to me. I mean, we go out there. I see the same people every day because Compton's such a small city. So every time I saw someone, if I stopped and filled out a field card, that's all I'd be doing. So I talked to these guys and they self-admit it to me. They tell me their nicknames. That's what happened with Mr. Davis and I.
Michael Sanft (04:23:31):
And fair to say again, once again, this is a form of keeping records, right? Is that if you ever have a police officer who's not with your same knowledge and experience on those streets, they could look at those field interview cards to help them determine who Mr. Davis is, right?
Robert Ladd (04:23:46):
That's correct.
Michael Sanft (04:23:46):
No further questions, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:23:46):
Any redirect?
Binu Palal (04:23:46):
Yes, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:23:46):
Re-redirect [inaudible 04:23:52].
Binu Palal (04:23:56):
With regards to Mr. Davis, did he ever hide the fact that he was a member of the Southside Compton Crips?
Robert Ladd (04:23:59):
No.
Binu Palal (04:24:00):
Was he actually quite open and proud of the fact that he was a member of the Southside Compton Crips?
Michael Sanft (04:24:04):
Objection to that speculation and description, Your Honor.
Binu Palal (04:24:07):
Okay. I'll actually rephrase.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:24:08):
[inaudible 04:24:10].
Binu Palal (04:24:11):
Did Mr. Davis [inaudible 04:24:12] behavior that made you believe that Mr. Davis was proud of being a member of the South Side Compton Crips?
Robert Ladd (04:24:18):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:24:19):
And to your knowledge, did he ever hide being a member of South Side Compton Crips?
Robert Ladd (04:24:25):
No. Whenever I would see Mr. Davis, he would always be in the company of other South Side Crips too.
Binu Palal (04:24:31):
And did he ever self-identify as a member of Southside Company Crips?
Robert Ladd (04:24:34):
Yes.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:24:34):
Is that it for you, Mr. Palal?
Binu Palal (04:24:34):
Yes.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:24:34):
Anything else, Mr. Sanft?
Michael Sanft (04:24:34):
No, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:24:46):
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, any questions for this witness? Okay. We have a few.
(04:24:47)
All right. A couple questions. You got a lot of questions. Okay. Why is Tupac not seen as a Mob Piru while in company of other members, but Mr. Davis is?
Robert Ladd (04:28:07):
Well, there's nothing that documented Tupac as a Piru. Now, he associated with them, but he didn't live their lifestyle. He was a rapper. So he did show some allegiance to the Mob Piru, however, he wasn't active. He wasn't out in the streets, gang banging or whatever. He was this rap mogul, and I think he liked that lifestyle.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:28:39):
Okay. From what you have observed regarding Reggie Wright Jr., would he have been considered affiliated or in connection with Mob Piru or any other gangs?
Robert Ladd (04:28:50):
No. Reggie was the head of security for Death Row Records, and he was actively employed, and the difference is the entourage. Yeah, they were paid by Suge Knight, but they played a different role. Reggie, he could carry a firearm like the rest of the people that he employed, but the entourage, not saying they didn't carry firearms, but they couldn't do it legally, so there's a big difference there.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:29:22):
Is it fair to assume there wouldn't need to be orders from Mr. Davis for members of the Crips to carry out retaliatory shootings, considering there was an active war between Mob Piru and the South Side following the shooting of Tupac? In other words, is the order implied even if the shot caller does not explicitly say shoot?
Robert Ladd (04:29:40):
Yes. If the shot caller's not there, then gang members are going to do what they do. If they're going to go out hunting, they're going to go out and shoot, even though it might not be sanctioned by shot caller. But if he's present, most likely they're going to do what Mr. Davis tells them to do. But if he's not present, then they're going to do what they do.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:30:08):
Did Orlando give permission to have that shootout at the carwash seeing that he was a gangster and not an OG?
Robert Ladd (04:30:15):
No. It's like I said, Mr. Davis wasn't there. These guys are gangsters and when they confront somebody, I mean, it's on, it's going to be on. He doesn't need to be sanctioned by Mr. Davis. Now, if he does something wrong and when he gets back, he brings heat on the neighborhood or whatever for doing something stupid, then he'll be disciplined for it. And when they're out in the street, gang banging, it's a whole different story because Mr. Davis is not present.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:30:47):
Did the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department ask Compton PD to help them with the murder investigations at the time that Compton searched homes on both sides, or was that something you took your own initiative?
Robert Ladd (04:31:00):
We took the initiative to ask them to come down, and once they were down here, they never asked us for help.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:31:09):
Okay. Any follow up based on that, Mr. Palal?
Binu Palal (04:31:11):
Yes, Your Honor. With regards to the distinction of whether Mr. Shakur or Mr. Wright were gang members, is it fair to say that you don't become a gang member by hanging around other gang members?
Robert Ladd (04:31:26):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (04:31:27):
And you had mentioned earlier that you had to put in some work in order to become a gang member.
Robert Ladd (04:31:32):
Yeah. You have to live that life in order to be considered Mob Piru.
Binu Palal (04:31:39):
And with regards to putting in work, what are some activities that one does? Not specific to Mob or the South Side, but just in the gang culture, what type of work do you have to put in order to be considered actually a gang member as opposed to a guy who hangs around gang members?
Robert Ladd (04:31:59):
You're going to be out there being active, doing drive-by shootings, getting in fight with other gang members, carjacking, anything that's going to get you some respect within the gang, they're going to be out there doing it.
Binu Palal (04:32:12):
So you had mentioned acts of violence and primarily shooting, is that fair?
Robert Ladd (04:32:17):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:32:18):
In fact, that's how you mentioned how Orlando Anderson got put on is being part of a group that shot at you. Is that fair?
Robert Ladd (04:32:23):
That's correct.
Binu Palal (04:32:25):
And then you would also... With being part of the narcotics trade, and I guess that's too of a lawyerly word to say, selling drugs, is that one of the ways that you get considered putting in work to become a member of a gang?
Robert Ladd (04:32:41):
Yes.
Binu Palal (04:32:41):
And as long as that money is going towards the gang?
Robert Ladd (04:32:45):
Yes, because money made from the sale of the narcotics is the lifeline of every gang in Compton. So the money that they get from selling narcotics, of course they buy more drugs, they buy more weapons, but most of these guys don't work. So the money made from the sale of narcotics, they buy cars, they pay their rent, everything that they do is generated from the sale of narcotics, the money made from that.
Binu Palal (04:33:15):
And so while Mr. Shakur or Mr. Wright Jr. may have been around the Mob Piru, is there anything to suggest that they were putting in work to become members of the Mob Piru?
Robert Ladd (04:33:30):
Definitely not.
Binu Palal (04:33:32):
And let's contrast that with Mr. Davis. Was in your observation, training and experience with Mr. Davis engaged in the narcotics sale for the purpose of benefiting the South Side Compton Crips?
Robert Ladd (04:33:41):
Absolutely.
Binu Palal (04:33:44):
So pass the witness.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:33:45):
Okay. Any questions based on the juror questions, Mr. Sanft?
Michael Sanft (04:34:02):
No, Your Honor.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:34:04):
Okay. Thank you so much for being here. You are excused.
Robert Ladd (04:34:08):
Thank you.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:34:12):
Last witness for the day?
Binu Palal (04:34:13):
Yes.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:34:15):
Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, this is our last witness for today. We are going to recess for the evening. During this recess, you are admonished not to talk or converse amongst yourselves or with anyone else on any subject connected to the trial or read watch or listen to any report of or commentary on the trial of any person connected with this case. [inaudible 04:34:29] information, including without limitation, newspaper, television, internet and radio, or form or express any opinion on any subject connected with the trial until the case is submitted to you. We'll see you guys back here at 1:00 PM for further presentation of evidence. Please rise to the jury.
(04:34:42)
For the record, the jury has exited the room.
(04:35:16)
Anything we need to address outside their presence?
Michael Sanft (04:35:18):
Nothing at this time.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:35:19):
Okay.
Binu Palal (04:35:21):
Well, one thing.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:35:24):
Okay.
Speaker 15 (04:35:24):
Mr. Sanft asked if we could admit the entire 180-page return from the search warrant. We had no objection to that, and so we will bring a clean copy for Mr. Sanft to put in tomorrow. Also, we still need to correct the 2017, the 717 transcript and audio. I'll have that brought for tomorrow.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:35:45):
What exhibit will the return be?
Speaker 15 (04:35:48):
I have no idea-
Judge Carli Kierny (04:35:50):
Will it be a defense or state?
Speaker 15 (04:35:52):
It's the defense.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:35:53):
Defense next in line, so that would be-
Speaker 15 (04:35:54):
WW.
Judge Carli Kierny (04:35:55):
WW. Okay. Sounds good.
Michael Sanft (04:35:57):
Thank you, Your Honor.
